Numpty alert!! Out of date railcard

[BanburyBlue]

Yesterday, me and Mrs BanburyBlue went from Banbury to Birmingham to see the Christmas Market. We have a Two Together Railcard, so I dug this out and went down to the station on Wednesday to buy our tickets (2x off peak day returns). I had to show my railcard to the woman at the ticket office before buying the tickets. On the outbound portion of the trip (travelled XC) the train manager duly arrived to check tickets, and happily checked our tickets and looked at the railcard. As I was putting the tickets and railcard away, eagle eyed Mrs BanburyBlue said "the railcard is out of date". I checked and yes, it was. In my rush on Wednesday, I'd dived into the drawer and pulled out last years (don't know why I kept it!!). I opened and closed the wallet 2 or 3 times, but each time I opened it, yes, it was still out of date.

I didn't say anything to the train manager as he was half way up the carriage by then. I'm not sure why he didn't notice? Just before he checked our tickets he had an extended debate with two passengers over the XC reservation system, and got as far as blaming Conservative governments for XC not being allowed to buy longer trains, so I can only assume he was distracted and didn't give our railcard the scrutiny it deserved.

Anyway, we carried on to Birmingham, and I spent the day considering (worrying) what to do - own up or risk it! In the end, when we were in Grand Central, I went to the ticket office and confessed my sins. The guy was a bit aloof (not rude - but not friendly - no issue here) and as expected after some checking he sold me an excess (difference between full fare and railcard discounted fare). He was checking various options, 1, excess, 2, 2 x off-peak singles, 3, buy a new railcard. I must admit I was a bit miffed when he said the excess was the cheapest option and I replied "great we'll do that then". His reply was "Well sir, you haven't much choice". I thought hang on, I've been honest here, no need for that last statement!

One thing that did surprise me was that by then I knew what train we would be travelling back on, so I asked him to book me 2 seats. He said he couldn't? I'm assuming that was because he was only selling me an excess and not new tickets? Not because it was a Virgin ticket office?

Anyway, rest of journey panned out okay. Of course the train was so busy on the way home that the train manager couldn't get through to check tickets - but I guess that's not the point.

So moral of the story (of course) is to check your railcard before travelling!!

 

[Gareth Marston]

An Out of date of railcard is easy-ish to miss given everything else. The ticket check will be initially is there a ticket, is it valid for today, is it valid on this train, do the two people traveling look like the photos....

 

[BanburyBlue]

An Out of date of railcard is easy-ish to miss given everything else. The ticket check will be initially is there a ticket, is it valid for today, is it valid on this train, do the two people traveling look like the photos....

Yes agreed. I also think that ticket inspectors know exactly what to check, but busy train etc. Perhaps I have an honest face

 

[JBuchananGB]

Other numpties around - My Mrs and I have individual Senior Rail Cards so I book tickets accordingly. We also have Oyster cards with rail cards added to them. Some months ago, when checking Oyster journey history I found that the other half's journeys had not been discounted. Called Oyster, who said the railcard had expired. Next journey was via London to Harrogate, not requiring to use Oyster, but I said the her, let's sort your Oyster discount out while we are in London, so she duly presented her railcard and oyster card to helpful TfL person at King's Cross. Helpful TfL person pointed out that the railcard had expired. As we were holding railcard discounted tickets to Harrogate, we propelled immediately to the ticket office, where a new railcard was purchased.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why didn’t you just buy a new railcard there and then? Sure it’d be more expensive but you get a year’s validity out of it.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Why didn’t you just buy a new railcard there and then? Sure it’d be more expensive but you get a year’s validity out of it.

I just assumed on the day that easiest option was the excess. Don't you need photos for a new railcard (or can they find the current ones on their system somewhere)? It had been a long day and to be frank, and assuming we'd need photos, I didn't have the energy to fuss around trying to find a photo machine.

 

[roversfan2001]

If you went for a day trip then reservations couldn't be issued as they close the day before (either at 18.00 or 23.59, not sure which one Chiltern use).

 

[Clip]

If you went for a day trip then reservations couldn't be issued as they close the day before (either at 18.00 or 23.59, not sure which one Chiltern use).

They went by XC I believe and they do 10 minute reservations I believe but there was probably none available anyway

 

[BanburyBlue]

They went by XC I believe and they do 10 minute reservations I believe but there was probably none available anyway

He didn’t look - just said “sorry, can’t do that mate”.

 

[roversfan2001]

Aren't 10 minute reservations not available from stations? I thought they were a text/online only thing. Not something I've used often so I'm not 100% but I thought that was the situation with them.

 

[robbeech]

I see no reason why a station wouldn't be able to facilitate a 10 minute reservation in the same way as a passenger can using the app. So my guess is there were none available as is often the case on their services (not a complaint). I'm not sure if the system is duplex, someone may know. Does the train get information from a source dumped to it or does the train say back to the source "i've got some seats here and there". If it is the latter then trying to reserve a seat when the train has no connectivity to the source (whatever it may be) will cause problems.

 

[BanburyBlue]

I see no reason why a station wouldn't be able to facilitate a 10 minute reservation in the same way as a passenger can using the app. So my guess is there were none available as is often the case on their services (not a complaint). I'm not sure if the system is duplex, someone may know. Does the train get information from a source dumped to it or does the train say back to the source "i've got some seats here and there". If it is the latter then trying to reserve a seat when the train has no connectivity to the source (whatever it may be) will cause problems.

As I said, he didn’t check, immediately said he couldn’t do it. I have had 10 minute reservations from Banbury station before.

 

[Starmill]

It would have been better to just buy a new railcard. There would have been no need for you to reveal that you had used the tickets with an invalid railcard and it would have been much better value for money to just buy the railcard.

Chiltern Railways don't offer seat reservations. Reservations for CrossCountry can be made by text.

 

[BanburyBlue]

It would have been better to just buy a new railcard. There would have been no need for you to reveal that you had used the tickets with an invalid railcard and it would have been much better value for money to just buy the railcard.

Chiltern Railways don't offer seat reservations. Reservations for CrossCountry can be made by text.

But, again as above, don’t you need photos?

 

[Starmill]

There are facilities to procure these photos at Birmingham New Street.

 

[IanD]

It would have been better to just buy a new railcard. There would have been no need for you to reveal that you had used the tickets with an invalid railcard and it would have been much better value for money to just buy the railcard.

Surely it would depend how much validity was left on the railcard left at home. Presumably the excess was something like £6-£7 each for Banbury-Birmingham so stumping up £30 for a new railcard would only make sense if the other one had less than about 7 months to run on it (without factoring in the possible cost of new photos).

 

[Starmill]

I personally would have taken the risk of spending a few extra pounds on extended railcard validity and spare photos regardless, rather than admit to having travelled with an invalid railcard.

 

[IanD]

I personally would have taken the risk of spending a few extra pounds on extended railcard validity and spare photos regardless, rather than admit to having travelled with an invalid railcard.

I wouldn't have admitted that, I would instead have said something like "We seem to have mislaid our railcard, we must have had it with us on the way as we had numerous ticket checks and showed it when purchasing our tickets."

Plus if you've forgotten your railcard isn't the process now to offer to sell new tickets and then the passenger can claim the cost back if they are subsequently able to produce a valid railcard (or something like that)? Surely this would apply if you were sold an excess instead of totally new tickets so why waste money on a new railcard if you know where your current one is?

 

[Starmill]

Presumably it would apply but only if they had already had another railcard that was valid - BanburyBlue was not explicit that they did. You would also need to pretend to have lost your railcard then too which could be dubious.

 

[falcon]

Yesterday, me and Mrs BanburyBlue went from Banbury to Birmingham to see the Christmas Market. We have a Two Together Railcard, so I dug this out and went down to the station on Wednesday to buy our tickets (2x off peak day returns). I had to show my railcard to the woman at the ticket office before buying the tickets. On the outbound portion of the trip (travelled XC) the train manager duly arrived to check tickets, and happily checked our tickets and looked at the railcard. As I was putting the tickets and railcard away, eagle eyed Mrs BanburyBlue said "the railcard is out of date". I checked and yes, it was. In my rush on Wednesday, I'd dived into the drawer and pulled out last years (don't know why I kept it!!). I opened and closed the wallet 2 or 3 times, but each time I opened it, yes, it was still out of date.

I didn't say anything to the train manager as he was half way up the carriage by then. I'm not sure why he didn't notice? Just before he checked our tickets he had an extended debate with two passengers over the XC reservation system, and got as far as blaming Conservative governments for XC not being allowed to buy longer trains, so I can only assume he was distracted and didn't give our railcard the scrutiny it deserved.

Anyway, we carried on to Birmingham, and I spent the day considering (worrying) what to do - own up or risk it! In the end, when we were in Grand Central, I went to the ticket office and confessed my sins. The guy was a bit aloof (not rude - but not friendly - no issue here) and as expected after some checking he sold me an excess (difference between full fare and railcard discounted fare). He was checking various options, 1, excess, 2, 2 x off-peak singles, 3, buy a new railcard. I must admit I was a bit miffed when he said the excess was the cheapest option and I replied "great we'll do that then". His reply was "Well sir, you haven't much choice". I thought hang on, I've been honest here, no need for that last statement!

One thing that did surprise me was that by then I knew what train we would be travelling back on, so I asked him to book me 2 seats. He said he couldn't? I'm assuming that was because he was only selling me an excess and not new tickets? Not because it was a Virgin ticket office?

Anyway, rest of journey panned out okay. Of course the train was so busy on the way home that the train manager couldn't get through to check tickets - but I guess that's not the point.

So moral of the story (of course) is to check your railcard before travelling!!

......
And don't think because you are being honest you are doing something special.
People are not rewarded for being honest they are punished for being dishonest.

 

[robbeech]

I wouldn't have admitted that, I would instead have said something like "We seem to have mislaid our railcard, we must have had it with us on the way as we had numerous ticket checks and showed it when purchasing our tickets."

Which is a lie and you should expect to be dealt with accordingly. It may seem trivial but for every one person that genuinely picks up the wrong rail card there are likely several hundred people who risk buying a discounted ticket online and hoping the guard doesn’t ask. The vast majority will get away with it frequently, often because no ticket check takes place at all, sometimes on journeys upwards of 100 miles. For this reason the TOC has to try to be strict on matters an I support this fully. I do however agree with the protocol that if you forget it or bring the wrong one you should be able to get a refund if you supply it within a set period of time providing you don’t abuse this. If you are unable to pay the the same procedure should be executed as it would with any ticket. A ufn perhaps including a penalty fare where applicable.

The TOCs have a horrific time dealing with fare evaders, for every 1 genuine error there will be hundreds of fares evaded as mentioned before, and for every valid ticket on a convoluted route that the staff do not know or believe there will be thousands of fares evaded

 

[BanburyBlue]

Presumably it would apply but only if they had already had another railcard that was valid - BanburyBlue was not explicit that they did. You would also need to pretend to have lost your railcard then too which could be dubious.

Yes BanburyBlue had a valid railcard- found it when I got home!

 

[BanburyBlue]

......
And don't think because you are being honest you are doing something special.
People are not rewarded for being honest they are punished for being dishonest.

Totally agree - being honest should be, er, normal?

 

[Starmill]

In which case you could potentially attempt to claim the refund even now if you are able to send the tickets and a copy of the valid railcard back. I am not sure who you would apply for the refund from, but presumably it would be Virgin Trains as they sold you the tickets.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Which is a lie and you should expect to be dealt with accordingly. It may seem trivial but for every one person that genuinely picks up the wrong rail card there are likely several hundred people who risk buying a discounted ticket online and hoping the guard doesn’t ask. The vast majority will get away with it frequently, often because no ticket check takes place at all, sometimes on journeys upwards of 100 miles. For this reason the TOC has to try to be strict on matters an I support this fully. I do however agree with the protocol that if you forget it or bring the wrong one you should be able to get a refund if you supply it within a set period of time providing you don’t abuse this. If you are unable to pay the the same procedure should be executed as it would with any ticket. A ufn perhaps including a penalty fare where applicable.

The TOCs have a horrific time dealing with fare evaders, for every 1 genuine error there will be hundreds of fares evaded as mentioned before, and for every valid ticket on a convoluted route that the staff do not know or believe there will be thousands of fares evaded

Agree - that was the reason I eventually decided to own up. Once I knew numpty BanburyBlue had left the real Railcard at home, it was the only thing to do.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Surely it would depend how much validity was left on the railcard left at home. Presumably the excess was something like £6-£7 each for Banbury-Birmingham so stumping up £30 for a new railcard would only make sense if the other one had less than about 7 months to run on it (without factoring in the possible cost of new photos).

Railcard valid until EO March, excess was £13.

 

[IanD]

Which is a lie and you should expect to be dealt with accordingly.

It's not a lie, just a version of events. The valid railcard was mislaid (at home). They had a railcard on the outward journey (albeit out of date) which was accepted and checked on a number of occasions and could have been flagged up if the rail staff concerned had been more diligent. Maybe if it had been flagged up at the ticket office, BanburyBlue could have gone home and got the valid one.

Railcard valid until EO March, excess was £13.

Borderline case really when you add in the cost of photos. However, I would try and get a refund on the excess now you can present your railcard. If it was Virgin who did the excess, write to them they will more than likely just ignore what you've written and send you a stack of rail vouchers for £25-£50.

 

[BanburyBlue]

It's not a lie, just a version of events. The valid railcard was mislaid (at home). They had a railcard on the outward journey (albeit out of date) which was accepted and checked on a number of occasions and could have been flagged up if the rail staff concerned had been more diligent. Maybe if it had been flagged up at the ticket office, BanburyBlue could have gone home and got the valid one.

Borderline case really when you add in the cost of photos. However, I would try and get a refund on the excess now you can present your railcard. If it was Virgin who did the excess, write to them they will more than likely just ignore what you've written and send you a stack of rail vouchers for £25-£50.

Can you do that?

It would have been helpful if the ticket office staff at Banbury had noticed, because then I would have gone home and found the valid one. Ultimately though, it was my fault for not checking before we travelled.

If the train manager would have noticed, wouldn’t the outcome been the same - excess to cover the difference?

 

[clagmonster]

If the train manager would have noticed, wouldn’t the outcome been the same - excess to cover the difference?

Outside chance, but by the book it would have been new tickets issued at full fare as if no ticket held. There would be an outside chance of report for prosecution.

By the book, there is no right to the excess at a booking office but a booking clerk when you approach them is far more likely to show discretion as you are clearly trying to put right the situation rather than try it on.

 

[IanD]

I would think that this would apply in this situation. No reason to report for prosecution if this was the first occasion the railcard had been forgotten.

ttps://www.raildeliverygroup.com/media-centre/press-releases/2017/469772179-2017-03-21.html

By the book.