Comparisons between the USA and UK aren't really that instructive as their electricity grid (such as it is) has very little resemblance to ours.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Say NO to Smart Meters
- Thread starter cjp
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
cjmillsnun
Established Member
- Joined
- 13 Feb 2011
- Messages
- 3,275
But in reality, going for the killswitch on individual meters won't happen. The effect will be too small.
If a cyber terrorist wants to do real damage, they'll go for the control systems of the transmission and distribution networks. If they get through those we are in big trouble. Thankfully both the government and the network operators are well aware of this especially in the light of the wake up call that recently happened.
When your meters are due for replacement (and they do get replaced because their calibration is only valid for a fixed period of time) you'll get a smart meter whether you want one or not because the meter asset management companies won't keep standard meters in stock once the SMETS2 rollout happens. They'll want one meter to install for electricity and one for gas. That's down to economics. It's cheaper that way. If they do do that, it is safer for you to have it connected. There will be updates sent out regularly over the system to improve security.
Your small supplier will support smart meters very soon and they will be encouraging you to swap.
My recommendation to you. Take the tinfoil hat off. You're far more likely to download a virus that turns your computer into a zombie bot (google botnet) or totally encrypts your data (ransomeware) than having the killswitch activated on a smart meter.
In reality a smart meter will give you more control over your supply as you'll be able to find out where you can save money, which is especially important given energy prices will continue on their upward trend.
HSTEd
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 14 Jul 2011
- Messages
- 20,342
One of the PhD projects I was offered involved attempting to damage a substation by hacking into its internet connection and causing it to rapidly open and close circuit breakers etc.
They really are concerned about how easy it seems to be.
They really are concerned about how easy it seems to be.
It's also (relatively) easy to protect against. Either (a) don't connect to the public Internet at all; or (b) ensure that all connections are cryptographically secure. Using strong encryption moves the problem into the 'nation state' attack class rather than the 'script kiddie' class that results from non-encrypted connections.
HSTEd
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 14 Jul 2011
- Messages
- 20,342
Unfortunately its too late for that, all the control networks are gone and the public internet is the only affordable way to control the grid at this point.
(And no, that is not a decision I would have made).
Until someone discovers a catastrophic flaw in the encryption system or its implementation.
cjmillsnun
Established Member
- Joined
- 13 Feb 2011
- Messages
- 3,275
Not all the control networks are gone. Telemetry options are available via satellite and encrypted radio packet communication.
I know that on the gas side they do not use the public internet for control systems for the very reason of keeping the network secure.
This is my understanding also. Whilst I don't work in the energy industry I have been on training relating to the Smart Meter roll out and the above is what I was told.
HSTEd
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 14 Jul 2011
- Messages
- 20,342
Also interesting aside - in the quasi privatised Ontario Electricity Market, their version of gridwatch does not just provide estimates of the power generation by each fuel type.
It breaks it down by unit.
I doubt doing this in the UK would be very popular with renewables advocates because it would show the mad power variations experienced by individual wind farms far more clearly.
It breaks it down by unit.
I doubt doing this in the UK would be very popular with renewables advocates because it would show the mad power variations experienced by individual wind farms far more clearly.
My old meter was changed over two years ago for a digital one. The installer took about 30 minutes to complete the job and told me that the life of the meter was thirty years.
I have been offered a smart meter, but refused as my questions went unanswered. Amongst other things, I needed to know what would happen: A. If I changed supplier. B. How would my solar panels be affected. C. Being in an area of poor internet signal and living in an 18th century stone cottage with very thick stone walls, would the smart meter work.
Until more information is supplied on such matters, I am quite happy to supply meter readings to an email prompt every quarter.
I have been offered a smart meter, but refused as my questions went unanswered. Amongst other things, I needed to know what would happen: A. If I changed supplier. B. How would my solar panels be affected. C. Being in an area of poor internet signal and living in an 18th century stone cottage with very thick stone walls, would the smart meter work.
Until more information is supplied on such matters, I am quite happy to supply meter readings to an email prompt every quarter.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
A: Nothing
B: Not at all
C: I would assume so but cant confirm - it is a fairly basic bit of kit and the data it transmits is quite limited
I suspect that if you can get a telephone line you can get smart meter.
I would lay money that you've got a Smart Meter just without the Smart functionality enabled. I'm not convinced that anyone still manufactures/installs 'dumb' meters.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I've got a smart meter. It means I pay monthly correct actual bills in arrears with no estimates and no stupid payment plans. I fail to see any actual downside of this.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If you don't pay your bill you can expect to be cut off, the mechanism doesn't matter. Providing for people who can't pay is a state benefits issue, not an issue for suppliers. Asda don't give you free food if you haven't got money when you go there.
Sureleyyou have to use the smart meter, its hard wired into your electricity supply. It the display unit you probably don't use.
That would probably be preferable to getting into hundreds of pounds of debt.
It wouldn't if the alternative was your house freezing up and causing thousands of pounds worth of water damage...
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Best pay your bills then. You only need to heat to a couple of degrees above zero to prevent that in any case. In a terraced house you may not need to do anything as your neighbours do it for you when you're on holiday
(I've never had frost protection kick in while away).
Baxenden Bank
Established Member
- Joined
- 23 Oct 2013
- Messages
- 4,748
My mum has had two 'Smart' meters, and three in house displays and still get massively over-estimated bills.
It would likely take a day or more to get cold enough to do any serious damage - by which time you would have spoken to your electricity supplier to arrange a payment scheme.
Baxenden Bank
Established Member
- Joined
- 23 Oct 2013
- Messages
- 4,748
Most suppliers suggest that you cannot currently transfer as a 'Smart' meter user and it just becomes a normal meter and you have to start sending readings again. Or have a different 'Smart' meter installed.
"Smart metering" and "estimated bill" don't go together.
Baxenden Bank
Established Member
- Joined
- 23 Oct 2013
- Messages
- 4,748
The issue is the ability of the supplier to cut you off, remotely, even when you have paid your bill (or fully intend to do so when billed) for whatever reason. Just as BT can do right now with a few keystrokes at the exchange, or at some hackers site in Eastern Europe, Russia or China.
Baxenden Bank
Established Member
- Joined
- 23 Oct 2013
- Messages
- 4,748
Really, tell Norweb, or whoever they are now. Shall I supply copies of the bills or will you just accept that it happens. Just as, despite people saying it can never happen, the other day I watched a contactless payment go through on someone's credit/debit card (still in their wallet) when they presented a different credit/debit card to pay.
There are a *lot* of protections in place to ensure that you won’t be cut off if you’re vulnerable, for example.
Someone with a functioning smart meter, on an exact bill tarif can't get an estimated bill [Edit: Unless the billing system is FUBAR]. It's just not how it works - in order to get an estimated bill the meter would have to be uncontactable for an extended period (which stretches the definition of 'functioning').
If they had two cards in close proximity to the reader then it's entirely possible - that's simple card clash. If you're claiming that a contactless transaction went through on a card which was more than 15cm or so away from the reader then the laws of physics say that is simply not possible.
Last edited:
This is true but the usual protections apply as they would with traditional meters. The supplier should still try every which way to avoid cutting you off (i.e. it shouldn't be you miss one payment and suddenly your gas is cut off). So if you're on a credit meter they should switch to a prepayment meter (though only after they've tried to set up a repayment plan with you and either you've refused or not stuck to it). Even if you're already on prepayment meter they still shouldn't disconnect until they've tried to set up a repayment plan and have been out to visit you to make sure that they are allowed to disconnect (for example they can't disconnect a Pension between October and March). There has also been some argument as to wether they still need to got to court to get a warrant but I'm not clear on how that all panned out.
So yes, the supplier can cut off the supply remotely but if they fail to follow the traditional steps on that road then you can complain to them and I'm also sure that Ofgem would love to hear about it.
Yes this is because, for whatever reason, the Government decided to rush the roll out so meters that were designed using the SMETS1 standard are usually supplier specific. Newer meters which are built to the SMETS2 standard should be inter-operable as they use a central shared network. Why the Government didn't just delay forcing the energy companies to roll out until SMETS2 and the shared network was ready to roll is beyond me but in theory from July 2018 any meter installed should be SMETS2. This does, of course, mean that those that already have a meter will have to have another meter fitted to bring it the SMETS2 standard (unless they get luck and the supplier can just update it remotely which may apply to some designs).
That’s all pretty true. I wonder if anyone would like to hazard a guess as to how many disconnections for debt there were last year in the whole of Great Britain.
NSEFAN
Established Member
It's not the electric company cutting me off that concerns me, even by incompetence (such as one mistyped account number resulting in incorrect disconnection). It's someone else being able to remotely cut my power that's more concerning, either by accessing the smart meter directly or using a compromised system at the company offices. There's still a certain level of arrogance in the development of small, internet-connected devices; "who would bother hacking this?" being the attitude that eventually leading to someone suceeding. I'll be keeping my dumb meter for as long as I can, someone else can take them up and be on the receiving end of the vulnerabilities first!
- Status