My idea for GC/EMT HST's

[Prestige15]

There were disussions about GC's HST may be moving to EMT and EMT HST's remains in questions. Would it be ideal if both of them moved to Cross Country in exchange of Voyagers? Yes, The Voyagers, A trains that everyone loves to hate

Knowing that Voyagers and Meridians currently cannot work together due to the fact electrical connections are incompatible with eachother, But they are similar so modifications could be possible for them to work together, otherwise it could be possible if the 7-10 car 222's worked the Lon-Nott train aswell as the Lon-Sheff fast service, Leaving the Voyagers on other stopper/semi fast service including service to/from Leeds (No idea why 222's were never at Leeds)

The HST can simply go to Cross Country for long distance routes such as Plymouth-Scotland releasing Voyagers to work in multiple on otherservise or even perhaps replacing a number of Turbostars on Nott-Cardiff which in turn allowing more Birmingham-Nottingham stopper and Birmingham-Leicester/Stansted to run 4-6 cars.

What are your thoughts about this?

 

[SPADTrap]

Cross Country would have the same issues as EMT, wouldn't they? (Modifications wise)

 

[mallard]

Given that Bombardier have suggested it in the past, maybe if the MML became a fully 22x operation they could be fitted with pantograph-equipped trailers to fulfill Grayling's bi-mode threats without a massive downgrade in comfort?

Then the HSTs on XC could be replaced with 802s as production capacity allows, enabling then to take full advantage of the long runs under the wires (and even potentially the third rail down to Bornemouth if suitably equipped) on XC routes.

 

[swt_passenger]

Leaving the Voyagers on other stopper/semi fast service including service to/from Leeds (No idea why 222's were never at Leeds)

It's been mentioned before that EMT do not have a franchise requirement to operate a Leeds service. They do it only because the HSTs are maintained near Leeds. The previous consensus has been that in the absence of HSTs they would not normally operate north of Sheffield.

 

[robbeech]

The HST can’t keep to voyager timing for the long XC routes can it so that would all have to be shifted about.

 

[43096]

There were disussions about GC's HST may be moving to EMT and EMT HST's remains in questions. Would it be ideal if both of them moved to Cross Country in exchange of Voyagers? Yes, The Voyagers, A trains that everyone loves to hate

Knowing that Voyagers and Meridians currently cannot work together due to the fact electrical connections are incompatible with eachother, But they are similar so modifications could be possible for them to work together, otherwise it could be possible if the 7-10 car 222's worked the Lon-Nott train aswell as the Lon-Sheff fast service, Leaving the Voyagers on other stopper/semi fast service including service to/from Leeds (No idea why 222's were never at Leeds)

The HST can simply go to Cross Country for long distance routes such as Plymouth-Scotland releasing Voyagers to work in multiple on otherservise or even perhaps replacing a number of Turbostars on Nott-Cardiff which in turn allowing more Birmingham-Nottingham stopper and Birmingham-Leicester/Stansted to run 4-6 cars.

What are your thoughts about this?

I think we’ve had this debate before and it doesn’t work.

There are very few Voyager pairs. To replace the EMT HSTs (excluding the GC sets) you would need a pair of shops in place of each HST to get a similar number of seats. So 18 Voyagers required. Tell me how you cut 18 trains out of the XC fleet bearing in mind you only have 9 HSTs to replace them.

 

[MG11]

I would rather XC ordered more Voyagers and EMT ordered more Merieidans. I am aware of how franchsing works, so please spare any comments about Crayons or trolls and bridges.

 

[Qwerty133]

I would rather XC ordered more Voyagers and EMT ordered more Merieidans. I am aware of how franchsing works, so please spare any comments about Crayons or trolls and bridges.

Both Voyagers and Meridians are old designs that don't meet the latest emission standards and probably don't meet the latest safety standards so its not just a case of ordering more.

 

[MG11]

Both Voyagers and Meridians are old designs that don't meet the latest emission standards and probably don't meet the latest safety standards so its not just a case of ordering more.

That may be, but they are certainly safer than HSTs!

 

[Prestige15]

I think we’ve had this debate before and it doesn’t work.

There are very few Voyager pairs. To replace the EMT HSTs (excluding the GC sets) you would need a pair of shops in place of each HST to get a similar number of seats. So 18 Voyagers required. Tell me how you cut 18 trains out of the XC fleet bearing in mind you only have 9 HSTs to replace them.

Well, I have posted a thread about 360's moving to XC, Have a look on there, see if that helps.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ntry-could-it-work.156246/page-2#post-3174762

 

[Rail Blues]

That may be, but they are certainly safer than HSTs!

That's as maybe. But it is totally irrelevant

That doesn't mean that they would meet current safety and emissions standards.

Even if it did (which it doesn't) Bombardier aren't going to start remanufacturing a product they last made a decade and a half ago.

 

[SPADTrap]

I would rather XC ordered more Voyagers and EMT ordered more Merieidans. I am aware of how franchsing works, so please spare any comments about Crayons or trolls and bridges.

But you don't know how tooling or unit production works?

 

[Mugby]

That may be, but they are certainly safer than HSTs!

How do you know this?

 

[MG11]

Class 377s are made using 170 bodyshells, over 10 years after they were introduced, so I wouldn't imagine the Voy/Mers to be too out of date, safety wise.

 

[MG11]

I have often had a fantasy about 3 coach mid distance trains being made from Voyager bodyshells, perhaps operating P'mouth to C'diff services, allowing 158s to be cascaded to EMT for their Connect (formerly Alphaline) services.

 

[Qwerty133]

Class 377s are made using 170 bodyshells, over 10 years after they were introduced, so I wouldn't imagine the Voy/Mers to be too out of date, safety wise.

Different cabs on the 377s to the 170s which I believe has been the main area in which safety rules have changed. In any case it is the emissions that would cause the most problems (well that and the lack of any interest from Bombardier to reopen the production line).

 

[Intercity Exec]

Voyagers and Meridians can not work together because the computers can not recognise each other, it is not a wiring job like 15x and 16x couplers. Despite their similarities they are different generations of train so a simple upgrade wouldnt be possible. As for adding an electric carriage, which would avoid the problem of the K series engine not meeting euro standards, it will not happen because the whole train would have to be adapted as you could only do this by generating electricity by either diesel, or electric and feeding all of the train's traction motors from whichever power supply you are using, you would be rebuilding the train effectively from scratch as currently the traction power is generated on each vehicle separately and powers only that carriage's traction motors.

 

[nat67]

That may be, but they are certainly safer than HSTs!

HST's are a lot safer especially if they have ATP fitted to them which is why they are still a very good train and everyone hates Voyagers (clearly not you). And Just ordering voyagers as you put it wont happen anyway. They are a waist of time and money but we have the DFT to decide all this!.

 

[nat67]

I have often had a fantasy about 3 coach mid distance trains being made from Voyager bodyshells, perhaps operating P'mouth to C'diff services, allowing 158s to be cascaded to EMT for their Connect (formerly Alphaline) services.

Clearly that's insane and a waist of time because all the 4 coach crap is still full and standing when its only left Reading on a Newcastle service. ED's (Class 800's) would make more sense.

 

[FQ]

HST's are a lot safer especially if they have ATP fitted to them which is why they are still a very good train and everyone hates Voyagers (clearly not you). And Just ordering voyagers as you put it wont happen anyway. They are a waist of time and money but we have the DFT to decide all this!.

Not structurally. Voyagers are safer than MK3s if involved in a crash thanks to them being much younger so more safety regulations applying at the time they were built (presumably).

Personally, I think the best option for XC/EMT would be one of the following:
All EMT/GC/VTEC/GWR powercars that don't currently have a home go to XC and many of XC's voyagers get cascaded to EMT. There's no limitations compared to now (meridians can't work with HSTs so if they can't work with voyagers then there's no loss of flexibility). With remaining voyagers XC can double up any remaining services.

A full fleet replacement of HSTs and voyagers with 802s or similar. Perhaps get a slightly different design to allow running on 3rd rail if possible. Then the voyagers get either scrapped or cascaded elsewhere.

 

[D365]

How on earth does the fitment (or lack) of a signalling system contribute to structural safety? Are you suggesting that the GW HSTs are in that means safer than EC?

 

[Rail Blues]

HST's are a lot safer especially if they have ATP fitted to them which is why they are still a very good train and everyone hates Voyagers (clearly not you). And Just ordering voyagers as you put it wont happen anyway. They are a waist of time and money but we have the DFT to decide all this!.

ATP as a pp has stated does not impact on structural integrity. Whilst I agree that the likelihood of a new build of voyager is as likely as Elvis winning next year's Grand National on Shergar, not everyone 'hates' voyagers. You might, but i don't. They're not my favourite unit and they have their faults, I don't mind then and I think they're okay at what they do. It isn't the fault of the unit that whichever bright spark ordered them failed to forsee the growth in passenger numbers.

 

[yorkie]

That may be, but they are certainly safer than HSTs!

How is this relevant? Your apparent criticism of HSTs is becoming tiresome.

The chances of an incident where it would matter are miniscule; rail travel is inherently far safer than most other forms of transport. You are at greater risk by walking! Also there may be a lesser risk of a derailment when a heavy locomotive hits an object compared to a DMU, and the risks of a fire in passenger accommodation on an HST is surely less than that of a Voyager. So your claim is far from clear-cut at all.

 

[cactustwirly]

Not structurally. Voyagers are safer than MK3s if involved in a crash thanks to them being much younger so more safety regulations applying at the time they were built (presumably).

Personally, I think the best option for XC/EMT would be one of the following:
All EMT/GC/VTEC/GWR powercars that don't currently have a home go to XC and many of XC's voyagers get cascaded to EMT. There's no limitations compared to now (meridians can't work with HSTs so if they can't work with voyagers then there's no loss of flexibility). With remaining voyagers XC can double up any remaining services.

No! We don't want more of the horrible things, I'm pretty sure that would lead to a significant drop in capacity compared to a HST anyway

 

[Starmill]

All of this about ordering new Voyagers is just fantasy. Does anyone see a market for diesel trains capable of 125mph 30-35 years from now? Is there such a product available, anywhere in the world at present?

 

[richieb1971]

The HST was possibly the nearest all go rounder train ever built for the UK market.

Surely in this day and age we can replicate that again? I don't mean build a new HST, but build something that meets criteria such as -

Quiet
Comfortable
125mph top speed / perhaps 140mph
Has the same RA as an HST
Meets all emissions requirements
Can run on electric and diesel / Interchangable feeds from generator/OHLE
Can run in short sets /Long sets


Surely getting a train that ticks all these boxes isn't that hard.

 

[DenmarkRail]

All of this about ordering new Voyagers is just fantasy. Does anyone see a market for diesel trains capable of 125mph 30-35 years from now? Is there such a product available, anywhere in the world at present?

India...

 

[yorkie]

India...

Can you elaborate please?

 

[DanTrain]

All of this about ordering new Voyagers is just fantasy. Does anyone see a market for diesel trains capable of 125mph 30-35 years from now? Is there such a product available, anywhere in the world at present?

The MML (at the current rate anyway!). Also lines such as the South West Mainline and the rest of the XC route. Maybe I'm just being too pessamistic about electrifacation...

 

[cactustwirly]

The MML (at the current rate anyway!). Also lines such as the South West Mainline and the rest of the XC route. Maybe I'm just being too pessamistic about electrifacation...

The South West Mainline is electrified already is it not?