St Pancras High Level Concourse - How Did it Ever Get Past Planning?

[DarloRich]

You get some great views of it passing on a North London Line train east of Camden Road. And its probably visible from places like Hampstead Heath, that lave legally protected sightlines to major landmarks.

Did you know (for example) the protected sightline from Primrose Hill to St Paul's cathedral passes directly over Euston station?

So how did they get the black tower built?

I can't help feeling that STP needs some centralised concourse space, like under the clock at Waterloo. This has been consumed by a shopping mall, so there's no obvious place to wait (or much info on train times ect) other than in a scrum in front of the barriers.

You are supposed to spend your waiting time having a nice coffee and a cake in the "shopping mall". Most people seem to manage with that concept.

 

[DanTrain]

You are supposed to spend your waiting time having a nice coffee and a cake in the "shopping mall". Most people seem to manage with that concept.

Having paid an extortionate amount for a train ticket, the last thing I want to do is blow another £10 on coffee and cake (or whatever ridiculous price the charge these days in London).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Having paid an extortionate amount for a train ticket, the last thing I want to do is blow another £10 on coffee and cake (or whatever ridiculous price the charge these days in London).

Quite right. It's all very well saying that there's plenty of cafés to sit down with a cuppa and a snack, but if you're on a budget you might choose one of the many places selling sandwiches which you then have to eat standing up while avoiding being trampled or getting in the way of other users. You could say "you pays your money, you takes your choice" but that just sums up what's wrong with the station: it's a facility for the rich, and damn the rest of us.

 

[EM2]

Having paid an extortionate amount for a train ticket, the last thing I want to do is blow another £10 on coffee and cake (or whatever ridiculous price the charge these days in London).

99p for a filter coffee and £1.80 for a Bakewell slice or similar in Pret A Manger.

 

[EM2]

Quite right. It's all very well saying that there's plenty of cafés to sit down with a cuppa and a snack, but if you're on a budget you might choose one of the many places selling sandwiches which you then have to eat standing up while avoiding being trampled or getting in the way of other users. You could say "you pays your money, you takes your choice" but that just sums up what's wrong with the station: it's a facility for the rich, and damn the rest of us.

So what do you do at Waterloo, or Victoria, or Charing Cross that's any different?

 

[Ianno87]

So how did they get the black tower built?

It's not tall enough to block the view (Black Tower is only c. 14 floors). Primrose Hill is relatively high and St Pauls is quite some distance beyond Euston still. Basically stops you putting a proper skyscraper on the site.

I do recommend a walk up Primrose Hill, for those who've never done it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

So what do you do at Waterloo, or Victoria, or Charing Cross that's any different?

The concourse at each of those stations is larger, with more open circulating areas, and has more public seating available* along with more reasonably-priced retail outlets. Retail at all stations is overpriced, but St. Pancras is the only station where it really gets rubbed in if you don't have 3 surnames and a valet!

*=disclaimer: it is some time since I've used a Southern Region terminus, so things may have changed since then.

 

[EM2]

The concourse at each of those stations is larger, with more open circulating areas, and has more public seating available

If you only consider the area around the ticket barriers as the 'concourse' you might have a point, but the area by the main departure board is a concourse, as is the long Arcade area.
And I'd dispute that Charing Cross (and probably the Chatham side of Vic as well) has a larger concourse than the lower area at St P.

Retail at all stations is overpriced, but St. Pancras is the only station where it really gets rubbed in if you don't have 3 surnames and a valet!

Quite frankly, that's rubbish. Apart from Pret, there's the regular high street outlets like M&S, WH Smith, Costa and Starbucks & you can get a Meal Deal at Boots for £3.99. All the main stations are pretty much the same.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If you only consider the area around the ticket barriers as the 'concourse' you might have a point, but the area by the main departure board is a concourse, as is the long Arcade area.
And I'd dispute that Charing Cross (and probably the Chatham side of Vic as well) has a larger concourse than the lower area at St P.

Quite frankly, that's rubbish. Apart from Pret, there's the regular high street outlets like M&S, WH Smith, Costa and Starbucks & you can get a Meal Deal at Boots for £3.99. All the main stations are pretty much the same.

The downstairs bit of St Pancras is fiddly and is long and narrow. The actual area is probably greater than the three you mentioned (as expected, due to it being effectively 4 stations in 1) but Charing Cross is more open, being a large square hall. St Pancras is a few long, narrow retail arcades awkwardly connecting with each other, and due to the split-level nature feels claustrophobic.
As for the retail provision, I didn't phrase my last post as well as I'd have liked: what I meant was that the amount of space given over to the high-end businesses, coupled with the lack of publicly available seating, and the poor flow of passenger movements, leaves those on a budget (which won't include those foolish enough to use a station WH Smith's, but that's another story!) having to choose between hiding in a corner like a leper, or getting in the way of others.

Essentially though the problem with St Pancras is that there's too much stuff in too small a space. Giving so much of that space over to "Europe's longest champagne bar!" which always looks like the most sparsely populated area of the station just grates a little.

 

[DarloRich]

Having paid an extortionate amount for a train ticket, the last thing I want to do is blow another £10 on coffee and cake (or whatever ridiculous price the charge these days in London).

Quite right. It's all very well saying that there's plenty of cafés to sit down with a cuppa and a snack, but if you're on a budget you might choose one of the many places selling sandwiches which you then have to eat standing up while avoiding being trampled or getting in the way of other users. You could say "you pays your money, you takes your choice" but that just sums up what's wrong with the station: it's a facility for the rich, and damn the rest of us.

Dony be so silly. £10 for a coffee! Dont talk daft. I am northern ffs - do you honestly think i pay over the odds for a drink.

There is a couple of pubs and a wide choice of outlets for refreshment. As i said most seem able to deal with this concept

 

[Dr Hoo]

Dony be so silly. £10 for a coffee! Dont talk daft. I am northern ffs - do you honestly think i pay over the odds for a drink.

There is a couple of pubs and a wide choice of outlets for refreshment. As i said most seem able to deal with this concept

This was the scene at the height of last night’s disruption. I could have had dozens of seats and eaten a sandwich with a coffee for £2 whilst the apparently panicking passengers scrummed around the barriers. I really don’t know what comes over people.

 

[EM2]

More seats than I remember. Have they added a few benches recently?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

View attachment 39995

This was the scene at the height of last night’s disruption. I could have had dozens of seats and eaten a sandwich with a coffee for £2 whilst the apparently panicking passengers scrummed around the barriers. I really don’t know what comes over people.

It's funny how many people (myself included) don't like to sit right next to a stranger on a station concourse or platform bench. If there's an empty bench with 3 seats, the person that goes and sits in the middle seat is absolutely the worst, as it renders the two outer seats unusable in many people's minds. The person nearest the camera in that photo should have sat on the end seat, not the one they're in.

Social psychology is weird!

 

[edwin_m]

More seats than I remember. Have they added a few benches recently?

Those ones replaced some benches that were made from bits of the giant Olympic rings that hung in the station in 2012.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Let me guess, they're preparing for the EMT version of the Euston scrum?

 

[Busaholic]

Essentially though the problem with St Pancras is that there's too much stuff in too small a space. Giving so much of that space over to "Europe's longest champagne bar!" which always looks like the most sparsely populated area of the station just grates a little.

Always thought that was a curious claim, 'so what?' being the appropriate response. Europe's most soulless champagne bar, perhaps, by the look of it, although my only experience of a champagne bar was in about 1975!

 

[DanTrain]

Dony be so silly. £10 for a coffee! Dont talk daft. I am northern ffs - do you honestly think i pay over the odds for a drink.

There is a couple of pubs and a wide choice of outlets for refreshment. As i said most seem able to deal with this concept

I'll have to take your word on the prices having not been recently, but in my experience they charge £3 for a bag of Malteasers (my official price test!), something normally aquired for a quid at home.

Whilst the image above clearly shows seats available, this is at commuter times, in my experience these seats are much more occupied on a weekend by leisure travellers (who probably care more about these things, commuters tend to time their arrival atvthe station better).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The sweeties are not unduly expensive at M&S Food, FWIW, and come in fatteningly generous bags.

 

[whhistle]

The other thing to consider, is there are a significant amount of people who arrive early for their train but don't want any refreshments - I am usually one of them.

To be honest, when I was there, there was a Derby and Nottingham train (both late) waiting to board, so there was about double the amount of people next to the departure boards.
Perhaps it's their placement that encourages the congregation of people.

It's still rather small and next to no space for growth.

 

[asylumxl]

While I have my qualms with the station design, I think the most idiotic decision was installing barriers on the EMT concourse. Passengers flowed far better with the manual gate arrangement and, as it is, half the time the barriers are open and manual checks are in operation anyway!

 

[Kettledrum]

Thanks for posting this picture - looks fairly typical of the peak experience in my view.
- There are seats there, but not fully used.
- There is a big crowd waiting by the ticket barriers
- Looking at the departure board, it shows no trains are currently boarding. As departures are not spread evenly across the hour, and as EMT like holding people at the barriers until only a few minutes before departure time, this happens regularly.

 

[jon0844]

I am hardly a regular user but in the last week I've been there quite a few times, and been more observant because of this thread, and what I don't understand exactly is why the gates are often left open and only closed when a train arrives, then used to hold people back until boarding.

Is it down to staff having to perform other duties and therefore leaving the gates open? It seems that if you wanted to avoid a ticket check you'd just wait a bit. Or if you wanted to get onto the platforms to wait and board before anyone else, you just get there earlier and walk through.

That, to me, makes the gates seem rather pointless.

 

[Bald Rick]

So how did they get the black tower built?

That depends which black tower you mean.

40 Melton St (the old Railtrack House) is outside the protected view corridor; looking at St Pauls from Primrose Hill, 40 Melton St (14 stories) is well off to the right and out of the way. It is limited to this height as although it is out of the main protected view corridor, it is in the 'wider setting' corridor and must be therefore appear to be no higher than the top of St Pauls' main dome. As an aside I regard the view from the south east corner of the 13th or 14th floor as just about the best view of central London available, as there is nothing in the way to St Pauls and the city. (Guess where the CEOs office was).

1 Eversholt St is however just to the left of St Pauls, and in the corridor. It is just clear of the main dome, however to make this tower subservient to St Pauls it is restricted to 10 stories and is lower than the bottom of the main dome. The top of the block is also level with the horizon behind, which is Blackheath. Interestingly, there is a protected view from this other direction diametrically opposite and means nothing can be built that would appear to be behind St Pauls from Blackheath.

Then there is Evergreen House (160 Euston Road). Although you can communicate from the higher floors of this building to the top floors of 1 Eversholt St by morse code (it's less than 100metres away), from Primrose Hill it is again well out of the way. It is still, however limited in height for the same reasons as 40 Melton St.

The whole subject is one that is testing the re-developers of Euston. Expect some very interesting building!

 

[talldave]

My coffee at STP is free, thanks to my bank.

 

[DarloRich]

That depends which black tower you mean.

40 Melton St (the old Railtrack House) is outside the protected view corridor; looking at St Pauls from Primrose Hill, 40 Melton St (14 stories) is well off to the right and out of the way. It is limited to this height as although it is out of the main protected view corridor, it is in the 'wider setting' corridor and must be therefore appear to be no higher than the top of St Pauls' main dome. As an aside I regard the view from the south east corner of the 13th or 14th floor as just about the best view of central London available, as there is nothing in the way to St Pauls and the city. (Guess where the CEOs office was).!

it is a fantastic view up there. The old board room was really well served in that regard!

 

[sheff1]

I am hardly a regular user but in the last week I've been there quite a few times, and been more observant because of this thread, and what I don't understand exactly is why the gates are often left open and only closed when a train arrives, then used to hold people back until boarding.

Is it down to staff having to perform other duties and therefore leaving the gates open? It seems that if you wanted to avoid a ticket check you'd just wait a bit. Or if you wanted to get onto the platforms to wait and board before anyone else, you just get there earlier and walk through.

That, to me, makes the gates seem rather pointless.

On many occasions, they seem to use the gates just to keep people on the inadequate concourse. All the gates are closed, they then open the ones on the right (as you look from the concourse) when a train arrives so people can just walk out without checks. The next step is to close the gates again and then re-open the ones on the left a few minutes before a departure which results in an unseemly scrum - again with no ticket checks.

Your suggestion of going through early always worked well for me, but they seem to have clamped down on that a bit recently (although not consistently)

My other half did complain to EMT after she was uncomfortably jostled at 'scrum time' and asked them to explain the reasoning for the policy. Unsurprisingly, they answered a question she had not asked and completely ignored the one she had.

 

[sheff1]

Giving so much of that space over to "Europe's longest champagne bar!" which always looks like the most sparsely populated area of the station just grates a little.

Indeed. If you can afford to drink champagne at London prices, you are unlikely to do so more than once whilst seated in a soulless environment being blasted by a chill wind all the way from the North Pole ... or the Pennines at least !

 

[Dr Hoo]

On a general note (rather than specifically about EMT at St Pancras, although that is a handy exemplar) I am slightly surprised at the number of posters who seem to be suggesting a general 'wander on/no barriers' approach at busy long-distance terminals.

Perhaps it is my time as a station manager weighing too heavily on my imagination but I have always thought it beneficial to keep passengers off the platforms until the train is 'ready'. Of course, I realise that this can't be done at through stations like Birmingham New Street or Leeds.

It is very difficult for staff to prepare a train with passengers getting on 'early'.
There is often a need for set swaps, splitting or joining.
The availability of crew may be in doubt during disruption, causing uncertainty over the 'next train out'.
There are some safety issues that can be avoided such passengers tripping over hosepipes, movement of bowsers/refreshment trolleys, even passengers falling from platforms in front of arriving trains at the end of an evening.
We gave recently seen threads about luggage theft and conflict between passengers alighting and those barging on as soon as the doors open.
Once passengers are on the platform with a train standing with open doors it is very hard to control matters if there is a late change (e.g. making sure that nobody has joined a 'dead set' that has just been failed by fitters and has no crew on it).
There are usually no facilities such as seats, let alone refreshments or toilets, on terminal platforms.
And this is before we talk about revenue protection in any form.

Now that I am retired, after over 40 years in the industry I am always happy to give today's staff room to get on with their job. In return I am on first name terms with many of the staff at St Pancras. Respect works both ways.

Am I taking too much of an internal view?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

it is a fantastic view up there. The old board room was really well served in that regard!

Agreed - been there many times - noted how the artwork disapeared after Railtrack was put into administration. On a cold , clear day - the views were superb. These things made the contents of the meetings bearable.

 

[EM2]

When it comes down to it, it's a four-platform terminus the same as Fenchurch Street, with a bigger concourse and a lower train frequency.