Virgin Trains East Coast franchise to end 24 June 2018 and is temporarily re-nationalised

[47271]

This may well be a fig leaf for VTEC going to the wall, but if it at last results in a sustainable model for the east coast then great.

We'll see.

 

[Chester1]

Oh, the nasty left wing media. What con artists questioning if taxpayer value has been achieved.

Look at this from a facts based point of view, please. Do you know, for a fact, how much of the infrastructure will not be delivered on time? Some of it, most certainly, will be late. But what, exactly and how late? A couple of months delay on a minor thing is very unluckily to have adversely affected revenue in the order of more than a billion pounds. A major project suspension might. Furthermore, there is not much evidence as it stands of any delays to either infrastructure or rolling stock that have affected the performance of the franchise to date, and yet it has been reported that the franchise is not performing as well as expected.

Events tells us some things:

1. The DfT probably has not kept up its end of the bargain.
2. It is in the interest of Stagecoach not to carry the deal to the full term as they are unable to make the premium payments.
3. The balance of these two effects will be what should determine what penalties Stagecoach have had to pay to get out of the contract.

Think about it, if you were the DfT and Stagecoach wanted you to renegotiate, and your end of the bargain had been upheld flawlessly, you would not cede a centimeter of ground. Clearly, they have done because some of the things the DfT agreed to cannot happen. What we are not clear on is what Stagecoach paid and what, exactly they have got in exchange.

The Guardian didn't question whether it was value for money, it chose facts that support a title that called it a bailout and presented a mostly one sided argument that barely mentions the infrastructure upgrade issue. We don't know the detail of the agreement and the government. I agree with your three points but they do not match the news coverage I mentioned. Its lazy journalism that offers simple answers to appeal to readers, many of whom love to hate the Tories and don't really care if it is actually a taxpayer bung to the rich. VTEC is definately a mess and over bid but it has been saved by Network Rail and DfT incompetence. Its pretty astounding that the franchise agreement assumed that the power supply and capacity upgrades would definitely take place on time. For instance the TPE franchise agreement assumes no electrification will take place even though it is still looking reasonably likely (although delayed until at least 2022). That seems sensible, as does some sort optional extra payments for additional paths should they become available during a franchise.

 

[Starmill]

The Guardian didn't question whether it was value for money

As far as I can see that's exactly what they've done - and exactly what needs to be done.

For instance the TPE franchise agreement assumes no electrification will take place even though it is still looking reasonably likely (although delayed until at least 2022).

It doesn't assume there will be no electrification. It leaves the risk of delays to electrification with the bidder. Totally not the same thing. And also, the risk of that with the Northern franchise, which is working on the same dates, is still with the DfT. The TransPennine franchise doubtless cost us much more than it would have if the risk of delays had not been left with the bidder.

 

[Chester1]

As far as I can see that's exactly what they've done - and exactly what needs to be done.

Calling it a bailout when there is insufficient information available and barely mentioning half the reason the franchise agreement could not last is not questioning. For me questioning means a balanced investigation and conclusion.

 

[Iskra]

Question: why is the East Coast Franchise continually such a basket-case? ...Surely long-distance express trains are more profitable than the local trains.

 

[Failed Unit]

Could anyone explain this in simple terms?

Seems to me:

-VTEC cut short by 3 years
-VTEC maintaining the ECML
-VTEC having a bigger say on pathing

Am I wrong?

Be interesting to see how this impacts train regulation. I know as a passenger you don’t know the full story, but the amount of times you wait for a platform at York then leave late, get held at Doncaster (on a fast train) for trains to cross in front of get stuck behind stopping trains is amazing.

Why Network rail currectly always let late running XC trains out ahead of Virgin going north? It wouldn’t be so bad if the Virgin stopped at Durham. Holding the XC an extra 2 minutes would at least get the Virgin on time.

True I am sure virgin will take this to the other extreme.

 

[Failed Unit]

Question: why is the East Coast Franchise continually such a basket-case? ...Surely long-distance express trains are more profitable than the local trains.

They are in the fact of generates a premium. Just not as much as the bidders would like. It is also hard to attract new customers when the infrastructure isnt upto scratch.

 

[8H]

Isn't this news basically that another private operator is struggling to run the East Coast Franchise.

Yes it is !! East Coast doesn’t have the population numbers to generate West Coast revenues plus it shares long distance routes with Open Access (allegedly what the private sector is all about) Historically its most expensive fares are a bit cheaper than the WC too. Commuter growth over longer distances a bit like GWR on an “InterCity” route means more people buying cheaper season tickets too.

Nothing seems to give the route a significant boost and maybe managing the status quo in the absence of any big schemes to transform the line meant that the recent publicly run East Coast approached the job minimally and successfully ? Nobody else has managed it !!

 

[gavin]

Question: why is the East Coast Franchise continually such a basket-case? ...Surely long-distance express trains are more profitable than the local trains.

Those York south can use Grand Central and Hull trains who are far cheaper then you have frequent breakdowns and for a while those constant issues with the OHLE around Retford (which touch wood has gone well for a while) so some will have switched to alternate methods of travel

 

[DarloRich]

Be interesting to see how this impacts train regulation. I know as a passenger you don’t know the full story, but the amount of times you wait for a platform at York then leave late, get held at Doncaster (on a fast train) for trains to cross in front of get stuck behind stopping trains is amazing.

Why Network rail currectly always let late running XC trains out ahead of Virgin going north? It wouldn’t be so bad if the Virgin stopped at Durham. Holding the XC an extra 2 minutes would at least get the Virgin on time.

So that both trains have a chance of meeting PPM?

True I am sure virgin will take this to the other extreme.

at the risk of sounding like a broken record - how does it work with the Scotrail Alliance? Under this system do Scotrail get absolute priority? While the EC partnership may be different ( and we don't know enough about the structure to decide) this is the best evidence we have to call on for this type of company structure.

 

[SPADTrap]

Just like EMT, Virgin probably won't get 'absolute priority' because anything going through the core will. They'll need it to make their 24tph promise! (Meaning south of PBO naturally)

 

[Failed Unit]

So that both trains have a chance of meeting PPM?

.

From personal experience neither meet PPM. XC has already failed and the east coast loses more than 10 minutes stuck behind the XC stopping at Durham, Morpeth / Alnmouth.

 

[Alan2603]

Why Network rail currectly always let late running XC trains out ahead of Virgin going north? It wouldn’t be so bad if the Virgin stopped at Durham. Holding the XC an extra 2 minutes would at least get the Virgin on time.

When I asked a VTEC guard the same question quite a while ago (when a late running northbound XC train at York went ahead of the VTEC train I was travelling on) I was told that if the Virgin train went first, as it was scheduled to stop a Northallerton, it would impede the Cross Country train even more, as there are only two tracks through Northallerton (one up, one down).

By letting the Cross Country train go first (which runs striaght through to Darlington) it has a chance to make up a bit of time without getting stuck behind the stopping VTEC at Northallerton.

 

[Failed Unit]

When I asked a VTEC guard the same question quite a while ago (when a late running northbound XC train at York went ahead of the VTEC train I was travelling on) I was told that if the Virgin train went first, as it was scheduled to stop a Northallerton, it would impede the Cross Country train even more, as there are only two tracks through Northallerton (one up, one down).

By letting the Cross Country train go first (which runs striaght through to Darlington) it has a chance to make up a bit of time without getting stuck behind the stopping VTEC at Northallerton.

Which is fair enough. I will be specific about the one that gets me.

I use the 1700 London - Edinburgh service.

It is frequently held at York to let the 1833 York - Glasgow XC service go ahead.

It stops as Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Alnmouth, Berwick-on-Tweed and Edinburgh.

My service has to wait behind it on the 2 track railway at Durham and Alnmouth. (As well as Darlington, Newcastle and Berwick while it clears the platform.)

The XC may get to Glasgow within 10 minutes, the VTEC doesn’t and they are paying delay repay for the missed connections as a result. Would letting the XC go at 1856 really make its performance much worse? Why has it got Priority? (Is it because it is going beyond Edinburgh). The XC is released in this case around 1853 you can often see it on the platform as we wish. “Let us go first”

I may be unlucky but the majority of journeys I make we are delayed and missing connections because of this. If VTEC in charge of the asylum helps prevent this I am all for it.

 

[DarloRich]

Which is fair enough. I will be specific about the one that gets me.

I use the 1700 London - Edinburgh service.

It is frequently held at York to let the 1833 York - Glasgow XC service go ahead.

It stops as Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Alnmouth, Berwick-on-Tweed and Edinburgh.

My service has to wait behind it on the 2 track railway at Durham and Alnmouth. (As well as Darlington, Newcastle and Berwick while it clears the platform.)

The XC may get to Glasgow within 10 minutes, the VTEC doesn’t and they are paying delay repay for the missed connections as a result. Would letting the XC go at 1856 really make its performance much worse? Why has it got Priority? (Is it because it is going beyond Edinburgh). The XC is released in this case around 1853 you can often see it on the platform as we wish. “Let us go first”

I may be unlucky but the majority of journeys I make we are delayed and missing connections because of this. If VTEC in charge of the asylum helps prevent this I am all for it.

This week: All made PPM at the final destination - assuming you are comparing XC 1S51 & VTEC 1S25

last week: all made PPM expect for the 23rd when the XC train was 30 late at Glasgow recovering from 41 down by Alnmouth.

 

[quantinghome]

Question: why is the East Coast Franchise continually such a basket-case? ...Surely long-distance express trains are more profitable than the local trains.

It's not. When run by DOR it provided a decent premium back to the DfT, at or even above the premium being paid by Stagecoach. The problem is that the franchise bidding process encourages overbidding, so the winning company is then faced with having to pay premiums that can't be met. Letting Stagecoach welch on the deal will of course do nothing to discourage overbidding in the future so the sorry tale will go on and on.

 

[Carntyne]

So that both trains have a chance of meeting PPM?



at the risk of sounding like a broken record - how does it work with the Scotrail Alliance? Under this system do Scotrail get absolute priority? While the EC partnership may be different ( and we don't know enough about the structure to decide) this is the best evidence we have to call on for this type of company structure.

It works the same way as everywhere else, with the Signallers and TRCs operating in the best interests of passengers.

There's no "Oh that's a scotrail train, let that one through". Network Rail is still the System Operator across Britain and has certain obligations it must meet with regards to regulation.

 

[DarloRich]

I heard some comments from Grayling ( but only in passing) on the radio this morning. It seemed to be about the same people owning the budget for train and track maintenance. on East Coast. i cant find a record of them yet.

It works the same way as everywhere else, with the Signallers and TRCs operating in the best interests of passengers.

There's no "Oh that's a scotrail train, let that one through". Network Rail is still the System Operator across Britain and has certain obligations it must meet with regards to regulation.

I know that - i am just trying to get posters to think about things a little.

 

[Segedunum]

Question: why is the East Coast Franchise continually such a basket-case? ...Surely long-distance express trains are more profitable than the local trains.

Well the reason why it's turned me off completely is the drastic hiking of prices.

Back when they won the franchise, Newcastle to London was £9.95 with a railcard if you booked far enough ahead. Simple as.

The bottom tier then went to £11.20, then £13.20, then seemed to basically disappear on all but maybe the 0445 Newcastle to London and 2200 London to Newcastle with the average fare being £30 or so each way. The 0704 Scotsman usually ends up something silly like £70 even months in advance. The result? I travel via TPE and Grand Central, and VTEC gets nothing.

 

[FQTV]

Well the reason why it's turned me off completely is the drastic hiking of prices.

Back when they won the franchise, Newcastle to London was £9.95 with a railcard if you booked far enough ahead. Simple as.

The bottom tier then went to £11.20, then £13.20, then seemed to basically disappear on all but maybe the 0445 Newcastle to London and 2200 London to Newcastle with the average fare being £30 or so each way. The 0704 Scotsman usually ends up something silly like £70 even months in advance. The result? I travel via TPE and Grand Central, and VTEC gets nothing.

Exactly what I now do, too.

 

[BRX]

The result? I travel via TPE and Grand Central, and VTEC gets nothing.

Not if they manage to sell the seat at a higher price.

 

[FQTV]

Not if they manage to sell the seat at a higher price.

Absolutely; except that their petitioning to the DfT is effectively on the basis that they're not.

We'd presumably be seeing increased revenues, increased overcrowding of peak services, fewer empty seats on other services etc., etc., if they were.

 

[westv]

It all went wrong when they got rid of the Rewards scheme!

 

[FQTV]

It all went wrong when they got rid of the Rewards scheme!

It's a wonder that someone didn't set up a web campaign about that alone .

 

[IanXC]

I heard some comments from Grayling ( but only in passing) on the radio this morning. It seemed to be about the same people owning the budget for train and track maintenance. on East Coast. i cant find a record of them yet.

Ah, so the perfect answer to a points failure at Peterborough would be to plain line the points for the mainline eh

 

[MG11]

It all went wrong when they got rid of the Rewards scheme!

A company which sells ridiculously cheap Advance fares cannot be also giving rewards, something had to give.

 

[Starmill]

Where on earth do you get the idea of ridiculously cheap tickets from? I never saw any "ridiculously cheap" tickets. That's in contrast to London Midnald where you can get tickets for £9 from London to Crewe or previously when you could get £9 London to Sheffield tickets on EMT.

 

[MG11]

Where on earth do you get the idea of ridiculously cheap tickets from? I never saw any "ridiculously cheap" tickets. That's in contrast to London Midnald where you can get tickets for £9 from London to Crewe or previously when you could get £9 London to Sheffield tickets on EMT.

Stevenage To York Advance: Just £13.20! It's bananas!

 

[Alan2603]

Well, despite the franchise being curtailed, the 'improvements' (if that is what they are) to York station are still planned to go ahead:

www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/15694981.Railway_station_revamp_still_on_track_despite_early_franchise_end__says_Virgin/?ref=mr&lp=15

VIRGIN Trains East Coast is to press ahead with a major redevelopment of York Railway Station and upgrade of its train fleet, despite its franchise ending early.

The Press revealed in May that Virgin, which runs the station as well as train services down the East Coast Mainline to London, was planning a major revamp, including new shops and a first class lounge.

It was also proposing a more open plan ‘customer zone’ to replace the station’s traditional travel centre....

The 'improvements' include the very welcome First Class lounge, but I am not so sure about the rest.

However, as planning permission is yet to be sought for these 'improvements' and given York stations Listed status (which York City Council are very keen to preserve - remember the ticket barrier debacle!) it will probably fall onto whoever is awarded the new 'integrated' franchise to implement them. If indeed the new franchisee wishes to proceed with these 'improvements' to York station.

 

[westv]

Stevenage To York Advance: Just £13.20! It's bananas!

What day of the week and time was that then?