Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Bantamzen]

I mean, at the end of the day, a few bitter words simply because the 230s were being considered for Northern, is not going to cause Vivarail to drop all their work and close up shop. I’m going to be quite interested to see the outcome of their work, as my current research project is rather related to this.

It wasn't so much that they were mooted for Northern, but that at the time they were being sold as the ideal replacement for Pacers even though Pacers could and can still find themselves working practically every route Northern operate. Clearly with their speed restrictions, not to mention maximum fleet number restrictions meant that Arriva simply couldn't consider them. It made better economic sense to procure a whole new fleet rather than try to make the 230s fit then fill in the gaps. Plus of course the Pacers were always going to be replaced by the existing 15x stock, with the new DMU stock mainly coming in to operate their new 'Connect' product, so there simply wasn't the sufficient gaps to go ordering different and ultimately incompatible stock.

My own personal objections to VivaRail's product was that they started out trying make the 230s sound like some super new train that would be far better than anything anyone else could produc1, which clearly was never the case. The principle itself is interesting, though frankly still niche and clearly some way from being perfected. If they find themselves ending up on some isolated routes to increase capacity then fair enough, but a magic solution for large scale fleet replacement they are not. I however would not be excited to see one roll up for any services I will use in the future, sorry but they are what they are. 35 year old trains with new traction and a lick of paint!

 

[Mikey C]

It's interesting that the thinking 2 or 3 years ago was that this project seemed like a reasonable way of reusuing 35 year old Underground stock which had been withdrawn prematurely, as subsequently, with the vast number of orders for new EMUs, we are likely to have a glut of far newer mainline EMUs made surplus

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's interesting that the thinking 2 or 3 years ago was that seemed like a reasonable way of reusuing 35 year old Underground stock which had been withdrawn prematurely, as subsequently, with the vast number of orders for new EMUs, we are likely to have a glut of far newer mainline EMUs made surplus

Indeed, which has led to the idea of putting batteries / diesel engines in those instead, as they are cheaper to convert overall, already being mainline-suitable.

The 230 has found a niche (a route with platforms requiring a 2x20m formation) but elsewhere converted ex-BR EMUs i.e. 769s will be a better fit.

 

[MML]

If Vivarail can provide c230 units with a 'country style' interior thus transforming the look of the unit from LU style interior and offer it at a reasonably low ownership and operating cost, then these units could potentially stimulate the resurgence of branch lines.

Beeching was from ICI and like his modern day successor Sir John Harvey-Jones, believed the simple way to make a business profitable is to cut out the loss making parts. In fact, anybody could suggest that, you don't need to be a highly paid anybody.
What shows real talent is a person with railway expertise and vision such as Chris Green who can transform a loss making and unreliable service into a profitable and growing industry as he did with Network Southeast.

If the c230 can offer a 'value' product, which can be locally and easily maintained, and allows small branch lines to break even and increase service frequency, then it should find a successful and growing niche market.
It can't compete with a c769 on main traffic flows but does offer a branch line with an infrequent or irregular service, the chance to increase ridership with a more frequent service. Local communities will use local lines if the service is reliable and frequent. The challenge is to manufacture a unit which allows such services to be operated without incurring a loss.

I wish Vivarail luck. I just wish they would hurry up and get on with it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are getting on with it! "wmtrains" have allegedly ordered three units, and if peoples' reports on Long Marston being rather busy are true these are probably already under construction - and they can't come soon enough!

 

[DarloRich]

All very interesting stuff from an engineering viewpoint, they might also be looking at as more of a Diesel Hybrid to reduce running costs, but of course it doesn't alter the fact its still a 35 year old metro train trying to be passed off as something else which doesn't compare particularly favourably with a modern Air Conditioned Train, and the fact they have an order for a grand total of 3 trains on a line which happens to have circumstances and characteristics suited to the D train

the 153's we have on the vale are beyond knacked. It takes about 2 days to generate wheel flats you can here for miles, if someone farts wrongly it has to go out of service, the interior is falling apart, they are to small for the peak hours services, they are tatty and they stink. The inside of one of the door controls box has some interesting historic staff comments on the quality of the train!

The 150 is much better but is needed elsewhere. If either go out of service LM / soon to be LMNEWCO has to trip a unit down from Tysley while we resort to Shanks pony/bus/taxi. I will give the underground trains a go. They cant be worse.

And on LM we welcome them.

those of us on the vale will tolerate them and give them a chance. We would prefer a new train not a second hand underground train with a ford transit engine tbh but beggars cant be choosers. I will give them a go.

FWIW, on the Marston Vale you'd probably get away with stacking the cab-end sections up with lead acids as well as underfloor and do it the cheap, old fashioned way. It's not like it's busy.

it is much busier than ever before the 0815 arrival into Blethcley is standing room only now. The peak hours trains are busy

 

[D365]

I wish Vivarail luck. I just wish they would hurry up and get on with it.

‘They’ are hurrying up and getting on with it!

 

[HLE]

the 153's we have on the vale are beyond knacked. It takes about 2 days to generate wheel flats you can here for miles, if someone farts wrongly it has to go out of service, the interior is falling apart, they are to small for the peak hours services, they are tatty and they stink. The inside of one of the door controls box has some interesting historic staff comments on the quality of the train!

The 150 is much better but is needed elsewhere. If either go out of service LM / soon to be LMNEWCO has to trip a unit down from Tysley while we resort to Shanks pony/bus/taxi. I will give the underground trains a go. They cant be worse.



those of us on the vale will tolerate them and give them a chance. We would prefer a new train not a second hand underground train with a ford transit engine tbh but beggars cant be choosers. I will give them a go.



it is much busier than ever before the 0815 arrival into Blethcley is standing room only now. The peak hours trains are busy

Don’t know what the Bletchley lot do to them, the LM 153’s are almost bulletproof on the branches up here.

Much to the annoyance of many traincrew though.

 

[47802]

I didn't think it would be long before the usual naysayers piped up. Ultimately this is a company trying to prove a concept. It just so happens that the platform that they're using happens to be used, redundant LU stock that would otherwise be heading to the scrapyard. If they were using the same technology, but in a brand new structure with brand new bogies and electrics, would you still be decrying their efforts?

I thought the concept had already been proved by others including the 379 battery train, if you want be charitable you can look at it that way, or if you less charitable like myself you can say they are throwing everything at it including the kitchen sink at it in a desperate attempt to flog all these trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought the concept had already been proved by others including the 379 battery train, if you want be charitable you can look at it that way, or if you less charitable like myself you can say they are throwing everything at it including the kitchen sink at it in a desperate attempt to flog all these trains.

Of course they are, wouldn't you be? They've spent a lot of money on R&D that they need to recoup by flogging at least some of them for more than scrap value.

 

[MML]

No doubt the c230 could be stabled and supported locally at Bletchley rather than the current long slog back to Tyseley for the 150/153 stock. I wonder whether an overnight charge would provide enough power for the day service on the Marston Vale and whether use of regenerative braking and 10 minute top up from OHLE at Bedford and Bletchley could be used to recharge the batteries ?

It would be a pity if the trains had to use diesel engines, but then I'm not sure to what version LM has committed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the diesel version, but I expect if they are receptive to it Vivarail will make it worth their while taking part in trials.

 

[northwichcat]

No doubt the c230 could be stabled and supported locally at Bletchley rather than the current long slog back to Tyseley for the 150/153 stock. I wonder whether an overnight charge would provide enough power for the day service on the Marston Vale and whether use of regenerative braking and 10 minute top up from OHLE at Bedford and Bletchley could be used to recharge the batteries ?

It would be a pity if the trains had to use diesel engines, but then I'm not sure to what version LM has committed.

Our tests show that the train is able to run for 80 miles before requiring a recharge. Of course that would not be done in a real-life scenario

http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-announces-grant-develop-new-battery-train/

So a battery only version with a full battery would be capable of doing 2 return workings from Bletchley and Bedford. They make no reference to the charging time only that

Our EMU/battery hybrid train will be able to make use of existing overhead lines or sections of 3rd rail for charging the battery during the journey, or a diesel/battery hybrid could use the engines as range extenders.

 

[gazthomas]

I wonder how life the Parry People Movers (class 139) have left in them and whether these could be a suitable replacement and a good candidate for battery power?

 

[BrunswickGreen]

I wonder how life the Parry People Movers (class 139) have left in them and whether these could be a suitable replacement and a good candidate for battery power?

how much life?

 

[D365]

I wonder how life the Parry People Movers (class 139) have left in them and whether these could be a suitable replacement and a good candidate for battery power?

They are 'battery' powered - the energy storage device in this case being a flywheel rather than a chemical battery.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They've spent a lot of money on R&D that they need to recoup by flogging at least some of them for more than scrap value.

I do wonder how much total finance in terms of all project overheads and staffing costs, additional to the purchase costs of all those units, has been incurred by Vivarail on this Class 230 project since the date of its inception?

 

[route:oxford]

I do wonder how much total finance in terms of all project overheads and staffing costs, additional to the purchase costs of all those units, has been incurred by Vivarail on this Class 230 project since the date of its inception?

Why wonder?

Why not just look it up?

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08661726/filing-history

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why wonder? Why not just look it up?

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08661726/filing-history

I am neither interested in either the capitalisation nor the shareholdings of the company. What my posting mentioned was the total of the various types of expenditure that Vivarail had incurred since the formation of the company that were mentioned in my posting. It was be either the leasing or sale of Class 230 units that will be offset against those total costs to make a true project costing evaluation.

 

[D365]

I am neither interested in either the capitalisation nor the shareholdings of the company. What my posting mentioned was the total of the various types of expenditure that Vivarail had incurred since the formation of the company that were mentioned in my posting. It was be either the leasing or sale of Class 230 units that will be offset against those total costs to make a true project costing evaluation.

Are Vivarail (or indeed any other rolling stock engineering company) required to publish these expenditures in the public domain?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Unlike some people who are enthused by emotive words as "project innovation", I view any commercial project on pure hard and fast financial facts to evaluate any project that has been established and have always used this as my benchmark thinking in the thirty-plus years that I spent in field of Senior Management.

I have always viewed the Vivarail Class 230 project in that particular commercial light.

 

[D365]

I'm not sure I follow. Endeavours within the railway engineering field, more often than not, don't stand up to financial scrutiny when taken into account singularly. This is something that successive governments have failed to take into account when it comes to social mobility. What it does appear they are attempting to do is force competition into the rolling stock markets, something that has often been criticised in the past.

So why are we constantly deriding the efforts of a smaller, yet no less significant firm? There is a significant amount of research going into vehicles with onboard storage, and Vivarail are clearly willing to put money into developing this area. If we didn't have innovation, we wouldn't see progress. Heck, the railway network today wouldn't exist if business cases were judged solely on financial profit.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If we didn't have innovation, we wouldn't see progress. Heck, the railway network today wouldn't exist if business cases were judged solely on financial profit.

All I will say to you is I am less than impressed by this so-called "innovative" project in the time period in which it has been operational. If this is not a straightforward business operation, then why did the company behind the capitalisation of Vivarail decide to commit funds to it originally. It was never said to be anything but a commercial project when first launched and never an innovative R & D scheme.

 

[yorkie]

I have split the electric car discussion to a new thread

This thread is to discuss the creation of class 230 DEMUs.

It is totally understandable that people will want to discuss other things as spin-off from discussion here, but please feel free to do so by creating a new thread in the appropriate forum section.

Thanks

(If you wish to quote someone from an existing thread, you can copy & paste a quote into a new post, and that person will be alerted, and/or you could paste a link to the new thread within the existing thread)

 

[D365]

From an engineering perspective I will concede that the goalposts do appear to have changed since the original commencement of the project. However it does appear that there is interest within the industry regarding the 'battery hybrids' that are being developed. For one thing, there is a definite involvement within the Vivarail project from the Network Rail side.

 

[northwichcat]

So why are we constantly deriding the efforts of a smaller, yet no less significant firm? There is a significant amount of research going into vehicles with onboard storage, and Vivarail are clearly willing to put money into developing this area. If we didn't have innovation, we wouldn't see progress. Heck, the railway network today wouldn't exist if business cases were judged solely on financial profit.

Have Vivarail achieved anything regarding the development of IPEMUs which hadn't already been achieved with the class 379 trial?

Personally I think Vivarail have got lucky to get the order of 3 units for the next West Midlands franchise. They failed to produce their prototype unit in time for the current LM franchise and if a lease hadn't been agreed between Northern and Angel for all the 150/1s I imagine Abellio wouldn't have seen a need to replace the Marston Vale 150s yet.

Vivarail are now talking about D-Trains that can charge from overheads - I think they have the wrong type of train for that. The off-lease 323s or 365s might be ideal for that but a 35 year old train built to run off a live rail on a metro system?

 

[D365]

Vivarail are now talking about D-Trains that can charge from overheads...

Using the Furrer+Frey rapid charge system as opposed to any high voltage overhead.

The 379 trial didn't actually achieve much in terms of results or technological progress, it was more a proof of concept than anything.

 

[notlob.divad]

Have Vivarail achieved anything regarding the development of IPEMUs which hadn't already been achieved with the class 379 trial?

Personally I think Vivarail have got lucky to get the order of 3 units for the next West Midlands franchise. They failed to produce their prototype unit in time for the current LM franchise and if a lease hadn't been agreed between Northern and Angel for all the 150/1s I imagine Abellio wouldn't have seen a need to replace the Marston Vale 150s yet.

Vivarail are now talking about D-Trains that can charge from overheads - I think they have the wrong type of train for that. The off-lease 323s or 365s might be ideal for that but a 35 year old train built to run off a live rail on a metro system?

Using the Furrer+Frey rapid charge system as opposed to any high voltage overhead.

The 379 trial didn't actually achieve much in terms of results or technological progress, it was more a proof of concept than anything.

I was wondering about the idea of charging off overheads from a train that only has third rail pickup.

I have an admiration for what Vivarail are trying to do, however I do feel they may have backed the wrong horse so to speak. Porterbrook are in the process of doing the same thing that Vivarail aimed todo with a few 319s. (slinging diesel generators underneath them) Vivarail have now moved it on with this approach of 'flexibility', but the testbed they are using is still an old underground unit that apparently requires significant work to bring it up to mainline standards. Add to that there is surely nothing stopping Porterbrook again doing the same thing with an off lease 319 once proof of concept with the diesel generators is done. It is great being an R&D company, but generally you need someone to pay you for that R&D rather than having a competitor just copy your ideas on a more marketable product.

That said, I don't think Marston Vale will be the only place Vivarail units turn up. The use of them has been mooted for the Borderlands line, particularly if it allowed an increase in frequency and extension around the Merseyrail Wirral line loop. Having not seen any Firm proposals about the next W&B franchise, and the devolution of tendering these services to Cardiff, plus the political complexities of cross border / England only services, it has been almost impossible to work out if this is a genuine possibility or just noise.

 

[D365]

Borderlands is an interesting one. Indeed it has been mooted as a route that may benefit from the next battery train trial, whenever that may take place.

 

[route:oxford]

I am neither interested in either the capitalisation nor the shareholdings of the company. What my posting mentioned was the total of the various types of expenditure that Vivarail had incurred since the formation of the company that were mentioned in my posting. It was be either the leasing or sale of Class 230 units that will be offset against those total costs to make a true project costing evaluation.

Company accounts are a closed loop. There is no "magic money tree", they can only spend what they borrow from the bank or by raising capital.

So if you are truly interested, download all of the accounts, create a spreadsheet (or just use a pencil and paper) and follow the money.