Government Seeking Ways to Reverse Some Beeching Cuts.

[Chester1]

Nothing in life or politics is guaranteed.

True but the act of parliament for phase 1 has passed and contracts awarded. Only people who know little about the topic or are totally against HS2 think there is any real chance of cancellation.

Lines that would require a subsidy are not likely to be funded. Most of the schemes that are likely to happen are ones that would generate larger premiums for the government e.g. East West Rail or at least not cost a fortune every year e.g. Portishead.

 

[yorksrob]

I presume you mean Campaign for Better Transport. Not been called Transport 2000 for years (not long after the year 2000 stopped being in the future, I think)!

Yes, the new name had gone out of my head for some reason.

 

[Bald Rick]

Except that the current proposals have been around for donkeys years with nothing happening (with the exception perhaps of Portishead). If in this does mark a willingness for the Gmt to actually find a way forward on these, it would be a big deal.

But when is a proposal a proposal? When it is:

1) a line on a map and a couple of blokes shouting about it, or
2) a detailed, evidence based assessment of feasibility and benefits that demonstrate a strong business case?

A significant majority of reopening 'proposals' are the former. Proposers (local authorities, developers, regional transport bodies) need to move them to the latter. Then Government might get interested.

 

[Bald Rick]

Lines that would require a subsidy are not likely to be funded. Most of the schemes that are likely to happen are ones that would generate larger premiums for the government e.g. East West Rail or at least not cost a fortune every year e.g. Portishead.

Depends what you mean by subsidy.

Lines that need an operating subsidy are less likely to be funded, although I wouldn't rule it out.

Lines that need Governement funding for construction (a subsidy in all but name) will, I think, get moving. Even East West Rail, and new links to Heathrow will need some form of government financial support for construction.

 

[yorksrob]

But when is a proposal a proposal? When it is:

1) a line on a map and a couple of blokes shouting about it, or
2) a detailed, evidence based assessment of feasibility and benefits that demonstrate a strong business case?

A significant majority of reopening 'proposals' are the former. Proposers (local authorities, developers, regional transport bodies) need to move them to the latter. Then Government might get interested.

Thinking of Wisbech, Tavistock and Okehampton, all of these have been on Council drawing boards for years. I suspect that this is the case for all those on Graylings list.

 

[Wirewiper]

Reopening of Exeter - Plymouth (or more strictly speaking, Yeoford - Bere Alston) via Okehampton and Tavistock is favoured by the Peninsular Rail Task Force (PRTF), a rail improvement campaign group consisting of Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Torbay and Plymouth City Councils, and the Heart of the South West and the Cornwall & Isles of Scilly Local Enterprise Partnerships (LEPs). It is also supported by most of the MPs serving the area. The Task Force envisage the route as primarily a local one linking the communities en-route rather than providing an alternative main line, although its availability as a diversionary route during planned engineering work or unplanned emergencies is also welcome.

peninsularailtaskforce.co.uk

 

[DarloRich]

Reopening of Exeter - Plymouth (or more strictly speaking, Yeoford - Bere Alston) via Okehampton and Tavistock is favoured by the Peninsular Rail Task Force (PRTF), a rail improvement campaign group consisting of Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Torbay and Plymouth City Councils, and the Heart of the South West and the Cornwall & Isles of Scilly Local Enterprise Partnerships (LEPs). It is also supported by most of the MPs serving the area. The Task Force envisage the route as primarily a local one linking the communities en-route rather than providing an alternative main line, although its availability as a diversionary route during planned engineering work or unplanned emergencies is also welcome.

peninsularailtaskforce.co.uk

WOW - the Peninsular Rail Task Force. Prestigious. Have they any money to make their dreams happen?

 

[mallard]

The Independent have an article today outlining their "suitable candidates" for re-opening: http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/rail-lines-restoration-bring-back-routes-uk-beeching-history-a8082771.html

The only one that looks like it might have any chance of actually happening is Carlisle-Tweedbank and then only because, since most of the line is in Scotland, the cost would largely be met by the Scottish government. Maybe Lostwithiel-Fowey, since it's just the restoration of passenger services to an extant freight line and it's in a Conservative constituency in the South.

Of course, the only reason for the announcement is to attempt to temper Grayling's well-deserved anti-rail reputation. It's mainly just a re-announcement of the Oxford-Milton Keynes (which the media insists on erroneously calling Cambridge, extending the route to there is nothing more than a vague aspiration at this point) project.

 

[DarloRich]

Of course, the only reason for the announcement is to attempt to temper Grayling's well-deserved anti-rail reputation. It's mainly just a re-announcement of the Oxford-Milton Keynes (which the media insists on erroneously calling Cambridge, extending the route to there is nothing more than a vague aspiration at this point) project.

Agreed - although it should be Oxford - Bedford.

Unless substantial third party funding is found none of the "Beeching cuts" will be reversed.

 

[mwmbwls]

It's a shame that the DfT apparently think that Blyth and Ashington are in County Durham rather than Northumberland. Do they not check their press releases?

Perhaps they have been watching too many episodes of "The Last Kingdom"? Geographic knowledge cannot be take as a given by Her Majesty's Government.

 

[edwin_m]

I presume you mean Campaign for Better Transport. Not been called Transport 2000 for years (not long after the year 2000 stopped being in the future, I think)!

Nearly as long as Thameslink 2000...

I know that a lot of campaign groups such as Transport 2000, for example, understand the importance of improving existing services as well as reconnecting communities that are off the network. I personally am quite vocal about the need for better frequencies on the Whitby and Little North Western routes, for example.

However, too often the need to improve services on existing routes is presented as an excuse not to do anything about re-openings, and such sentiments play to the narrative of those who would rather not do anything.

Also, the majority of expenditure on a reopening would be a capital expenditure, so would almost certainly come from a different pot of money than "revenue" expenditure, such as running more trains, anyway.

Increasing service on existing routes should be far easier than re-opening old ones, with passenger services on freight lines somewhere in between. There will be little or no capital spend or the associated design, legal and planning matter which take so long. Capacity issues into major cities will be about the same. It needs revenue spend, but a re-opening will as well to keep the trains running, and the risk on an improved service is far less because the demand for the increase can be estimated with much more certainty by extrapolating from today's rail demand. And if the demand doesn't materialise then the service can be taken off, the trains used elsewhere and relatively little money has been wasted.

So I'm afraid I'm cynical about, for example, Exeter to Plymouth re-opening until someone succeeds in getting a regular and frequent service on the existing line to Okehampton (although there does at least seem to be some movement on this), because pushing on westwards will be far more difficult.

 

[DarloRich]

at least they didn't say it was in Yorkshire!

 

[Gareth Marston]

at least they didn't say it was in Yorkshire!

Daughter had on one of these American crime/murder reenactment/documentary type programmes recently she was howling with laughter as the suspect fled to "Yorkshire a town north of London"

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Should they instead look at sections of line to double? There's probably a few locations either on OLE routes or 3rd rail routes that could be in-filled (assuming they were ever allowed to do any new bits of 3rd rail)

 

[Henbury Loop]

Thornbury (Avon)

Thornbury has been in South Gloucestershire since 1st April 1996...

 

[yorksrob]

Reopening of Exeter - Plymouth (or more strictly speaking, Yeoford - Bere Alston) via Okehampton and Tavistock is favoured by the Peninsular Rail Task Force (PRTF), a rail improvement campaign group consisting of Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Torbay and Plymouth City Councils, and the Heart of the South West and the Cornwall & Isles of Scilly Local Enterprise Partnerships (LEPs). It is also supported by most of the MPs serving the area. The Task Force envisage the route as primarily a local one linking the communities en-route rather than providing an alternative main line, although its availability as a diversionary route during planned engineering work or unplanned emergencies is also welcome.

peninsularailtaskforce.co.uk

Indeed. The mid-Devon through route has taken a bit of a back seat in their updates recently, so hopefully this announcement will bring it a bit more to the foreground.

 

[yorksrob]

Maybe Lostwithiel-Fowey, since it's just the restoration of passenger services to an extant freight line and it's in a Conservative constituency in the South.

That would be one I would use, although I wasn't aware of it being proposed anywhere.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Thornbury has been in South Gloucestershire since 1st April 1996...

True, but for historical purposes I've put it under as Avon as in the former county of Avon to distinguish it from the Thornbury railway station that was in Bradford, Yorks.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

The issue with many lines, like Lewes/Uckfield - is where do you send the new services. Nothing more will fit through East Croydon for example. Extending the 1tph London Bridge-Uckfield barely seems worth the construction. So even if you divert other services down that route (e.g. Eastbourne services) the likes of Three Bridges and Haywards Heath are robbed. Perhaps more shuttles could be an option - but from where to where?

I suppose that its possible to run a line from Lewes to Uckfield and use the old station site for a 'platform 2' which would be directly on the opposite side of the road of the current Uckfield railway station. Services wise, I do think that a service from lets say Eastbourne to Uckfield via Lewes could work but what would happen to the Lavender Line?

 

[2HAP]

Lavender line will get a big load of compo, move to Bluebell and reopen Horsted Keynes to Haywards Heath.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thinking of Wisbech, Tavistock and Okehampton, all of these have been on Council drawing boards for years. I suspect that this is the case for all those on Graylings list.

But that's exactly the point. For as long as they are on the drawing board, gathering dust amongst the crayons, they are going nowhere. I spoke to the developer of Tavistock 11 years ago, but because no one has stumped up any cash, or commitments about economic growth, it hasn't gone anywhere. Wisbech has some momentum now (ie the transport authority has found some cash to develop the case from little more than a back of fag packet study), but the business case will be appalling - it will make Borders look positively attractive.

 

[eastdyke]

But that's exactly the point. For as long as they are on the drawing board, gathering dust amongst the crayons, they are going nowhere. I spoke to the developer of Tavistock 11 years ago, but because no one has stumped up any cash, or commitments about economic growth, it hasn't gone anywhere. Wisbech has some momentum now (ie the transport authority has found some cash to develop the case from little more than a back of fag packet study), but the business case will be appalling - it will make Borders look positively attractive.

I got quite interested (in Wisbech) when I learned of the 'Garden Town' proposal to build 10-12,000 new homes. Then I looked at the accompanying maps, I suspect that such numbers are fantasy bearing in mind the nature of the land. What Wisbech needs is Jobs and more Jobs not to become just another (and further) dormitory for Cambridge. IIRC the 'Business Case' developed so far for the re-opening still requires an operating subsidy in the later years of operation.

 

[yorksrob]

But that's exactly the point. For as long as they are on the drawing board, gathering dust amongst the crayons, they are going nowhere. I spoke to the developer of Tavistock 11 years ago, but because no one has stumped up any cash, or commitments about economic growth, it hasn't gone anywhere. Wisbech has some momentum now (ie the transport authority has found some cash to develop the case from little more than a back of fag packet study), but the business case will be appalling - it will make Borders look positively attractive.

All the time these routes have been on the drawing board, there hasn't been any hint of interest or encouragement from central Government. Infact some of them may date from 'New' Labours "trains carting around fresh air" period. That's not to say that this announcement is a magic bullet - more a change in emphasis. Who knows, maybe the next round of by-passes and motorways might include some match funding for new lines.

On another note, I'm intrigued as to why you believe Wisbech will have such a poor business case compared to the Borders:

• It's a largish market town which whilst in the South East is a bit remote to enjoy its prosperity.
• Instead of being a long winding branchline of the sort that many criticise its a relatively short stub of a line with minimal engineering.
• It will link the said market town with a fairly major centre of employment (Cambridge) as well as London and the wider network.

Its one of the schemes that should press the right buttons.

 

[Bald Rick]

I got quite interested (in Wisbech) when I learned of the 'Garden Town' proposal to build 10-12,000 new homes. Then I looked at the accompanying maps, I suspect that such numbers are fantasy bearing in mind the nature of the land. What Wisbech needs is Jobs and more Jobs not to become just another (and further) dormitory for Cambridge. IIRC the 'Business Case' developed so far for the re-opening still requires an operating subsidy in the later years of operation.

It also makes some very, very brave assumptions about construction scope and costs.

 

[Bald Rick]

All the time these routes have been on the drawing board, there hasn't been any hint of interest or encouragement from central Government. Infact some of them may date from 'New' Labours "trains carting around fresh air" period. That's not to say that this announcement is a magic bullet - more a change in emphasis. Who knows, maybe the next round of by-passes and motorways might include some match funding for new lines.

On another note, I'm intrigued as to why you believe Wisbech will have such a poor business case compared to the Borders:

• It's a largish market town which whilst in the South East is a bit remote to enjoy its prosperity.
• Instead of being a long winding branchline of the sort that many criticise its a relatively short stub of a line with minimal engineering.
• It will link the said market town with a fairly major centre of employment (Cambridge) as well as London and the wider network.

Its one of the schemes that should press the right buttons.

1) agreed, but to get close to the town centre will be expensive
2) the engineering is anything but minimal
3) it won't link to Cambridge, at least not without some major work at Ely, work to the level crossings between March and Cambridge, or taking another train out instead.

However it could work if those 10k houses each contribute £20k.

 

[yorksrob]

1) agreed, but to get close to the town centre will be expensive
2) the engineering is anything but minimal
3) it won't link to Cambridge, at least not without some major work at Ely, work to the level crossings between March and Cambridge, or taking another train out instead.

However it could work if those 10k houses each contribute £20k.

Frankly, if the engineering on this route is prohibitive, I can't see how any route construction, high speed included, can be justified. Its short and flat.

With regard to onward travel to Cambridge, I wasn't aware that the route was at capacity. Perhaps the alternative would be to join with the Peterborough stopper at March.

 

[Ianno87]

Frankly, if the engineering on this route is prohibitive, I can't see how any route construction, high speed included, can be justified. Its short and flat.

With regard to onward travel to Cambridge, I wasn't aware that the route was at capacity. Perhaps the alternative would be to join with the Peterborough stopper at March.

What Peterborough stopper?

You've either got the Stansted-Cambridge-Birmingham XC (extending its journey time and making it too long to get into Platform 2 at Stansted), or the Ipswich-Peterborough GA service (which doesn't go to Cambridge)

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

An obvious candidate must be Fawley to Southampton, or if the refinery causes problems at least as far as Hythe. Plenty of commuters living close by, track and even platforms in situ, and a ferry struggling apparently. Plus a dreadfully congested and dangerous road being the only alternative.

 

[yorksrob]

What Peterborough stopper?

You've either got the Stansted-Cambridge-Birmingham XC (extending its journey time and making it too long to get into Platform 2 at Stansted), or the Ipswich-Peterborough GA service (which doesn't go to Cambridge)

You're right. I forgot that turned left. I'm still not convinced Ely to Cambridge is so at capacity it couldn't take the additional service.

 

[Bald Rick]

You're right. I forgot that turned left. I'm still not convinced Ely to Cambridge is so at capacity it couldn't take the additional service.

It's not at capacity in terms of headway (although the Ely area is pretty close). It's the level crossings, both between March and Ely and Ely to Cambridge. There are some high risk ones down there (see the regular collisions on that stretch), and adding more trains increases the risk. Therefore, I'm afraid, if you run more trains, you need to do something with the level crossings.