Ordsall Chord

[50032]

I've mentioned on another thread that the TPEs which currently reverse at Salford Crescent are showing on tracking as continuing to do so until at least May 2018! It seems unlikely that they won't use the chord instead, although there'll be the problem of what to do with the eight minutes or so of saved running time.

Maybe TPE haven't briefed their drivers on the Chord yet? Or they want to keep the Salford Crescent route for knowledge retention purposes.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The chord and approach lines still have STOP signs clipped to the tracks.

 

[trickyvegas]

Brilliant idea, except it should reverse at Guide Bridge and do the Ashburys-Philip's Park line too.

They could send it back out of Platform 2 from Stalybridge.

 

[Railway Dave]

As I understand it the six trains a day over the Chord from December will be increase to three an hour each way from May. Please correct me if I have got this wrong.
With 3 trains an hour each way, the Ordsall Chord so it will not realise its full benefit in May as Airport to Leeds trains will still cross the Piccadilly throat. Anyone got any thoughts on the extent to which the seemingly deferred proposal for platforms 15 & 16 at Piccadilly would enable better use to be made of the Ordsall Chord and whether the digital solution suggested by Chris Grayling is a realistic alternative to these additional platforms?

 

[Chester1]

As I understand it the six trains a day over the Chord from December will be increase to three an hour each way from May. Please correct me if I have got this wrong.
With 3 trains an hour each way, the Ordsall Chord so it will not realise its full benefit in May as Airport to Leeds trains will still cross the Piccadilly throat. Anyone got any thoughts on the extent to which the seemingly deferred proposal for platforms 15 & 16 at Piccadilly would enable better use to be made of the Ordsall Chord and whether the digital solution suggested by Chris Grayling is a realistic alternative to these additional platforms?

There will be no North Transpennine services crossing the station throat. I might be wrong but the services from May will be:

Manchester Airport - Sheffield -Cleethorpes
Manchester Airport - Preston - Glasgow/Edinburgh

Manchester Airport - chord - Middlesbrough
Manchester Airport - chord - Leeds - Newcastle

Manchester Piccadilly - Hull
Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds (skip stop)
Liverpool - Manchester Victoria - Scarborough
Liverpool - Manchester Victoria - Leeds - Newcastle

The third service will be an extension of the introductory Northern service Leeds- Bradford-Victoria- Oxford Road to Piccadilly and the airporr. The fourth Ordsall Chord service would be a Northern service probably from Burnley. The increase in capacity of Piccadilly platforms 1-12 takes place in May.

 

[snowball]

The increase in capacity of Piccadilly platforms 1-12 takes place in May.

What increase in capacity is that? I haven't heard of any track or signalling alterations.

 

[Altfish]

Manchester Piccadilly - Leeds (skip stop)

I didn't think any TPE trains terminated at Leeds in the current timetable; is this the York one cut back?

 

[leedslad82]

I didn't think any TPE trains terminated at Leeds in the current timetable; is this the York one cut back?

No the Manc pic to Leeds service replaces the Leeds to Huddersfield stopper and the Huddersfield to Manchester Vic stopper.

 

[YorkshireBear]

What increase in capacity is that? I haven't heard of any track or signalling alterations.

The removal of the twice hourly snake across the entire throat of Piccadilly is the main cause, there is also less platform occupancy with two less TPE services reversing in the shed to the airport.

For East Manchester services there are also two less TPE services running between Piccadilly and Guide Bridge.

 

[lejog]

As I understand it the six trains a day over the Chord from December will be increase to three an hour each way from May. Please correct me if I have got this wrong.
With 3 trains an hour each way, the Ordsall Chord so it will not realise its full benefit in May as Airport to Leeds trains will still cross the Piccadilly throat. Anyone got any thoughts on the extent to which the seemingly deferred proposal for platforms 15 & 16 at Piccadilly would enable better use to be made of the Ordsall Chord and whether the digital solution suggested by Chris Grayling is a realistic alternative to these additional platforms?

No, the Ordsall Chord is realising its full benefits as envisaged by the Northern Hub project when the May timetable starts. The two TPE North services from the Airport ARE being routed over the Chord, freeing up platform capacity at Piccadilly for extra services from May. (No doubt someone can tell you what these services are exactly, the one that sticks in my mind is the extension of mid-Cheshire services from Stockport to Piccadilly). There will for the first time be a Calder Valley service to Piccadilly and the Airport, the second part of the business case for the Chord.

The theoretical capacity of the Chord is 4tph, but a fourth service was not a requirement of the Hub project, nor subsequently has a fourth service ever been specified by the DfT or Rail North or any official body. Northern would like to use this path to run the Blackburn-Todmorden-Victoria service through to Piccadilly and the Airport, but at the moment this is only a suggestion not a franchise requirement.

In fact all of the Northern and TPE services that are required to run through Platform 13/14 during the current franchises are starting in May 18. So it hardly surprising that the business case for Platforms 15/6 is under review. Yes there are suggestions for extra services in the future, like the Blackburn service or an extension of London services to Bolton, but nothing that demands improved capacity through the corridor in the short term.

 

[Altfish]

No the Manc pic to Leeds service replaces the Leeds to Huddersfield stopper and the Huddersfield to Manchester Vic stopper.

Ah, I see.
So TPE are taking over the Northern Service?
What happens to the ones that terminate at York, are they running to Scarborough/Middlesbrough or Newcastle.?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Ah, I see.
So TPE are taking over the Northern Service?
What happens to the ones that terminate at York, are they running to Scarborough/Middlesbrough or Newcastle.?

It is a complete recast.

But effectively the:
Liverpool Scarborough is diverted via chat moss.
Liverpool Newcastle as is (in future extended to Edinburgh) #
Manchester Airport Middlesbrough diverted via chord.
Manchester Airport York diverted via Chord and extended to Newcastle.
Manchester Piccadilly Hull as is but picks up some Northern stops as a semi fast.
Manchester Piccadilly Leeds is a new service and acts as another semi fast picking up Northern stops that the Piccadilly Hull one doesn't.

While those are the end to end routes the intermediate station stops change quite a lot. For example Dewsbury goes to 3 TPE trains per hour. Both semi fasts and the Middlesborough, same for Stalybridge. I think anyway.

 

[Altfish]

It is a complete recast.

But effectively the:
Liverpool Scarborough is diverted via chat moss.
Liverpool Newcastle as is (in future extended to Edinburgh) #
Manchester Airport Middlesbrough diverted via chord.
Manchester Airport York diverted via Chord and extended to Newcastle.
Manchester Piccadilly Hull as is but picks up some Northern stops as a semi fast.
Manchester Piccadilly Leeds is a new service and acts as another semi fast picking up Northern stops that the Piccadilly Hull one doesn't.

While those are the end to end routes the intermediate station stops change quite a lot. For example Dewsbury goes to 3 TPE trains per hour. Both semi fasts and the Middlesborough, same for Stalybridge. I think anyway.

Thanks.
Thank goodness for the trams - it is reverting to the 70's services when I was at college in Newcastle, at least the walk up Deansgate is no longer a necessity for us in South Manchester.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Thanks.
Thank goodness for the trams - it is reverting to the 70's services when I was at college in Newcastle, at least the walk up Deansgate is no longer a necessity for us in South Manchester.

Sorry if i have missed something.

But why thank goodness for the trams?

 

[edwin_m]

Thanks.
Thank goodness for the trams - it is reverting to the 70's services when I was at college in Newcastle, at least the walk up Deansgate is no longer a necessity for us in South Manchester.

You'll still have Newcastle and Middlesbrough services from Piccadilly and Oxford Road via the Chord, plus slower Hull and Leeds services from Piccadilly via Guide Bridge. No need to walk across the centre!

 

[Altfish]

Sorry if i have missed something.

But why thank goodness for the trams?

If all the Newcastle trains are going from Victoria as they used to. Then, if like me, you are travelling from Altrincham; pre trams the journey to Victoria meant alighting at Knott Mill (aka Deansgate) and walking the whole length of Deansgate. Now I jump on a tram, and at worse after a quick change at St Peter's Sq. and I'm at Victoria.

 

[Altfish]

You'll still have Newcastle and Middlesbrough services from Piccadilly and Oxford Road via the Chord, plus slower Hull and Leeds services from Piccadilly via Guide Bridge. No need to walk across the centre!

To be honest, with the trams it is as easy to go to Victoria as Piccadilly from Altrincham

 

[Bovverboy]

Bovverboy said: ↑
I've mentioned on another thread that the TPEs which currently reverse at Salford Crescent are showing on tracking as continuing to do so until at least May 2018! It seems unlikely that they won't use the chord instead, although there'll be the problem of what to do with the eight minutes or so of saved running time.

Maybe TPE haven't briefed their drivers on the Chord yet? Or they want to keep the Salford Crescent route for knowledge retention purposes.

I doubt that route knowledge retention will come into it, since that can be accommodated in ECS moves, of which there are a surprising four on Tuesdays to Saturdays (and two on Mondays).
In any case, knowledge of Vic-Crescent and Picc-Crescent is only going to be needed for Vic-Bolton-Preston and Picc-Bolton-Preston journeys, so Crescent-Bolton-Preston knowledge is going to be needed to be retained just as much.

 

[Bovverboy]

The theoretical capacity of the Chord is 4tph

It may well be that, once you've allowed space for all existing services sharing common tracks (Victoria to Salford Central and beyond, Victoria to Eccles and beyond, Deansgate to Castlefield Junction and beyond) an additional four tph is all that can be accommodated. Considering the chord in isolation, its capacity should be at least 30tph.

 

[YorkshireBear]

If all the Newcastle trains are going from Victoria as they used to. Then, if like me, you are travelling from Altrincham; pre trams the journey to Victoria meant alighting at Knott Mill (aka Deansgate) and walking the whole length of Deansgate. Now I jump on a tram, and at worse after a quick change at St Peter's Sq. and I'm at Victoria.

One of them is going to Piccadilly and victoria and oxford road. One just victoria.

 

[Altfish]

One of them is going to Piccadilly and victoria and oxford road. One just victoria.

Yes? So if I'm going for the Victoria only train because I have to be in Newcastle for a specific time the tram is damned handy

 

[Railway Dave]

No, the Ordsall Chord is realising its full benefits as envisaged by the Northern Hub project when the May timetable starts. The two TPE North services from the Airport ARE being routed over the Chord, freeing up platform capacity at Piccadilly for extra services from May. (No doubt someone can tell you what these services are exactly, the one that sticks in my mind is the extension of mid-Cheshire services from Stockport to Piccadilly). There will for the first time be a Calder Valley service to Piccadilly and the Airport, the second part of the business case for the Chord.

The theoretical capacity of the Chord is 4tph, but a fourth service was not a requirement of the Hub project, nor subsequently has a fourth service ever been specified by the DfT or Rail North or any official body. Northern would like to use this path to run the Blackburn-Todmorden-Victoria service through to Piccadilly and the Airport, but at the moment this is only a suggestion not a franchise requirement.

In fact all of the Northern and TPE services that are required to run through Platform 13/14 during the current franchises are starting in May 18. So it hardly surprising that the business case for Platforms 15/6 is under review. Yes there are suggestions for extra services in the future, like the Blackburn service or an extension of London services to Bolton, but nothing that demands improved capacity through the corridor in the short term.

Thanks, that's really good to hear. Is your information about the May 18 timetable services over the Ordsall Chord in the public domain? If so where?

 

[lejog]

The Northern services have been discussed in the May 2018 Northern thread in the Allocations forum, there has been a full proposed timetable seen by some forum members and more recently a publicly available industry track access consultation published on the Network Rail site (link available in that thread).

AFAIK the TPE May 18 timetable is not publicly available yet, but the postponed December 2017 track access applications, showing the Chord services, are still on the ORR site.

 

[Mollman]

It may well be that, once you've allowed space for all existing services sharing common tracks (Victoria to Salford Central and beyond, Victoria to Eccles and beyond, Deansgate to Castlefield Junction and beyond) an additional four tph is all that can be accommodated. Considering the chord in isolation, its capacity should be at least 30tph.

Depends if you include the flat junctions at either end as part of the cord or not.

 

[The Planner]

It may well be that, once you've allowed space for all existing services sharing common tracks (Victoria to Salford Central and beyond, Victoria to Eccles and beyond, Deansgate to Castlefield Junction and beyond) an additional four tph is all that can be accommodated. Considering the chord in isolation, its capacity should be at least 30tph.

In a single direction? Considering its only a single signal section you cannot take it in isolation and even if you look either side you still wouldnt get that theoretical amount of tph.

 

[Railway Dave]

The Northern services have been discussed in the May 2018 Northern thread in the Allocations forum, there has been a full proposed timetable seen by some forum members and more recently a publicly available industry track access consultation published on the Network Rail site (link available in that thread).

AFAIK the TPE May 18 timetable is not publicly available yet, but the postponed December 2017 track access applications, showing the Chord services, are still on the ORR site.

Thanks, that's really helpful

 

[spongsdad]

It seems that, apart from Sundays commencing Dec 10th, Northern Rail don't want to sell me a through ticket from Burnley Manchester Road to Manchester Oxford Road. Anybody know why?

 

[Altfish]

It seems that, apart from Sundays commencing Dec 10th, Northern Rail don't want to sell me a through ticket from Burnley Manchester Road to Manchester Oxford Road. Anybody know why?

I use TPE for booking tickets, they seem to be offering said tickets.

 

[spongsdad]

Well fancy that; so they do. So the moral of the story is "Never rely on Northern to do anything competent"

 

[Trackman]

I’ve seen on a Manchester Railway FB page that Northern are selling £5 golden airline type tickets for the 10th, limited edition only available at Man Vic and Oxford Road. Singles only! Look nice though.