Serious Train De-railment Liverpool

[First class]

A class 142 derailed last night meaning a lot of Northern's services into Liverpool are suspended.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/8096509.stm

It seems pretty apparant that passengers have taken, (quite large), belongings with them. In the event of an evacuation, all this should be left behind. I'm sure the RAIB will condemn this action from the traincrew. If somebody had fell with this luggage, and trains hadn't completely stopped, they could be killed.

On a positive note, I don't think this 142 is going anywhere for a while.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

I don't think it's fair to blame the crew, after all you can't physically stop passengers doing anything.

 

[1D53]

Evacutation led by the BTP and Merseyside Fire Bridgade not the crew.

 

[GB]

While any derailment needs to be looked at closely, defining it as a "Serious Derailment" is a bit strong.

With regard to evacuation, this did not start untill all affected lines were blocked, trains stopped, and other staff in attendance.

 

[metrocammel]

How can this be defined as a serious derailment. From the poor quality photograph of the pacer, it has remained upright, and it claims only 2 wheels (ie, the front axel) derailed. Calling it a serious derailment sound like something Sky News would say.

Also, how on earth can you criticize the traincrew for people taking personal belongings with them.
a) Has other peole have commented, the detraining was dealt with by the emergency services and b) In a situation where there is probably quite a lot of panic, are a couple of staff really going to be able to stop people taking their bags with them- Prioritising comes to mind.

On a positive note, I don't think this 142 is going anywhere for a while.

And is a comment like that really needed? That 142 'not going anywhere for a while' could mean Northern having to cape trains or short forming peak time trains = unhappy passengers.

From a high ranking railwayman such as yourself, Ste, I'm surprised you have such a naïve view of the railways.

 

[First class]

With all respect, you only know as much as the BBC told you. As it is effectively on my doorstep, a sister company and well connected with the local train crew at Liverpool L St, I do know a bit 'more'. Obviously this isn't the most appropriate time to discuss such issues until the RAIB have finished.

It may not be serious in terms of the end result- but the reason it happened, which has not been disclosed is.

The detraining of the passengers was actually assisted by the emergency services. When staff are preparing to evacuate a train- they should ask for assistance from any relevant off-duty staff onboard. They should then, in simple terms, explain the evacuation process. Part of this should include an instruction to leave all personal belongings behind.

Obviously staff can't force people to do anything- but regardless of whether trains were running or not- it is unsafe and slows down the de-training procedure. Something which I may bring up within my own employment.

With regards to the 142 comment:

This was obviously a bit of light-hearted banter. It is never nice that a Resource Controller is a train down operationally as you can't be as flexible as usual. Although this train will be out of use for some time, it is unlikely to cause any major issues. Again, like I said, this was a bit of humour against a much-hated unit. But then again, any train is better than no train....

 

[1D53]

It may not be serious in terms of the end result- but the reason it happened, which has not been disclosed is.

Its been disclosed in plenty of other places on the web already......

 

[westcoaster]

scroll down and look at the set of pics,picture 5 says it all really

 

[Mintona]

Didn't the engine fall off or something?

EDIT: Just seen the picture in westooaster's link that confirms that.
That Carla chick is quite nice

 

[First class]

What happened to the train has been mentioned... i.e. the engine falling off.

Always more to it than meets the eye, more to do with the reasons why.

 

[westcoaster]

you mean the 20MPH TSR where it happened. final pic in the gallery

 

[metrocammel]

Its been disclosed in plenty of other places on the web already......

Quite. At the end of the day, the title of this thread is exaggerated. Indeed, I did read the BBC article, but I've also spoken to friends at Northern Rail who have clarified some points, but by and large confirmed the BBC article.

Your are also correct in saying it wouldn't be right to comment until a RAIB report is released. You should also be reminded it is very unprofessional to comment on a member of staff's actions until anything is proven. Comments such as 'the guard was in the wrong to do xx' can ruin careers.

From what I was told this afternoon, the general consensus seems to be a maintenance issue- this has been further compounded by a TRUST report posted on another forum stating:

"05:25 Advice received from RAIB duty officer that the cause of the derailment established as the unit's engine becoming detached from it's mountings."

If that is the case, the cause is 'serious'. But thankfully, no-one has been injured, and the train remained upright. Calling it a 'serious derailment' implies a far worse derailment!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What happened to the train has been mentioned... i.e. the engine falling off.

Always more to it than meets the eye, more to do with the reasons why.

Forgive me for not being a technical person, but other than wear & tear, or bad maintenance, what else will cause an engine to fall off?

Either of the two, I'm sure someone will be responsible, and it's up to RAIB to investigate, and reveal the truth. Without knowing the absolute facts, none of us are in any position to be judge & jury!

 

[Tomnick]

Given that it was a controlled evacuation rather than an emergency evacuation (if the comment about waiting for 30 minutes is true!), then I wouldn't have thought it'd be that much of an issue allowing passengers to carry luggage off the train. I can understand it in an emergency, when you need to get people off as quickly as they can, with the possibility of traffic still moving on other lines - but I know I wouldn't be happy about leaving my belongings behind in a normal 'walking to a bus to continue the journey' situation!

 

[1D53]

you mean the 20MPH TSR where it happened. final pic in the gallery

The TSR is irrelevant, it paid no part in the derailment.

 

[Oswyntail]

Let us hope that this is simply a case of poor maintenance (though this would have serious consequences for the team responsible) and not a generic failing in these aging machines which, love them or hate them, are the mainstay of services in many parts of the country. A general, even if temporary, withdrawal would be truly "serious".

 

[thelem]

I second Tomnick's opinions, albeit talking from a passenger, rather than industry, perspective.

If I was on a train that had a minor derailment (in this case meaning one "minor" injory out of 39 passengers) and had waited on the train long enough for the emergency services to turn up (i.e. no immediate, run from the train, danger) then I would want to take whatever I could carry with me. From the pictures, that seems to be what happened - I can see one man single handedly carrying a large suitcase, and a woman with a large cuddly toy. How were either causing a problem?

If you force people to leave their personal belongings on board then that could have serious sentimental or business consequences. At the very least it will require the passenger to reclaim them at a later date. Why bother if they have already been waiting next to their suitcase for several (30?) minutes?

 

[Mojo]

Its been disclosed in plenty of other places on the web already......

And given that many say RAIB stands for "Read About It Belatedly" then we could be waiting over a year to discuss this, by that time more incidents would have gone on!

Edit: I'd also like to agree with the comments above. I would certainly take my personal belongings with me when disembarking, you never know to what extent they may be needed. I dealt with a woman a while ago who had her medication in a suitcase she'd left on the train and for her the contents of her bag were essential.

 

[thefab444]

That Carla chick is quite nice

What, Carla Simple?

 

[bluenoxid]

From what I was told this afternoon, the general consensus seems to be a maintenance issue- this has been further compounded by a TRUST report posted on another forum stating:

"05:25 Advice received from RAIB duty officer that the cause of the derailment established as the unit's engine becoming detached from it's mountings."

Why are we always another forum, or the other forum, or that place. :roll:

With regards to the 142 comment:

This was obviously a bit of light-hearted banter. It is never nice that a Resource Controller is a train down operationally as you can't be as flexible as usual. Although this train will be out of use for some time, it is unlikely to cause any major issues. Again, like I said, this was a bit of humour against a much-hated unit. But then again, any train is better than no train....

All I am going to say is that the southern half of the Metrolink is closed this summer. Oh f***.

 

[507 001]

as far as i'm aware that TSR is no longe relevant because it dates back from when the chord was being constructed. don't know why it hasnt been removed.

the 142 in question (i think its 042) is currently sitting in a siding at edge hill looking very sorry for itself!

 

[merlodlliw]

I have a friend who works for Merseyside Fire & Rescue, he did not know about the overground derailment, but told me M F & R last night after closing of the lines underground took part in a exercise "Merseyrail train derails many injured" the exercise finished at 0500 this morning.
The exercise involved three very serious simulated injuries on a train below ground, and started at 0100 he was involved in the exercise.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Good to know that they're practising, just in case

 

[Turbostar]

IIRC, am I right in thinking this is not the first time a 142 has 'dumped' an engine en-route?

 

[First class]

I have a friend who works for Merseyside Fire & Rescue, he did not know about the overground derailment, but told me M F & R last night after closing of the lines underground took part in a exercise "Merseyrail train derails many injured" the exercise finished at 0500 this morning.
The exercise involved three very serious simulated injuries on a train below ground, and started at 0100 he was involved in the exercise.

This was a simulation based on the river bed. A train 'crashed/derailed' in a serious way. From what I know, this was a Network Rail led exercise.

The Emergency Services arrived at James Street and Hamilton Square for access.

They had life-sized manikins spread alongside the wreckage.

 

[1D53]

as far as i'm aware that TSR is no longe relevant because it dates back from when the chord was being constructed. don't know why it hasnt been removed.

The TSR is still in force.

 

[ukrob]

It seems pretty apparant that passengers have taken, (quite large), belongings with them. In the event of an evacuation, all this should be left behind. I'm sure the RAIB will condemn this action from the traincrew. If somebody had fell with this luggage, and trains hadn't completely stopped, they could be killed.

I'm quite shocked that someone who claims to be a Merseyrail manager has made this post. If 'stethomson' is your real name, I hope your direct superiors don't read ths site, but I know that Bart does.

It wasn't an emergency evacuation, it was controlled, around 30 minutes after the incident, and after all other trains in the area being halted. It is this kind of speculation that gets people disciplined.

The 142 is still in Edge Hill sidings coupled to 150148 as of 1pm today.

 

[CosherB]

These nasty 'bus' trains really are the absolute pits. Why weren't they scrapped years ago?

No, hang on.... why where they even built in the first place?

 

[bluenoxid]

142s or Serpell??? Even Thatcher chose the better to stomach alternative

 

[507 001]

was 148 coupled into the train or was it just used to rescue the 142?

 

[ukrob]

was 148 coupled into the train or was it just used to rescue the 142?

Rescue.