St Pancras High Level Concourse - How Did it Ever Get Past Planning?

[whhistle]

Took a visit to St Pancras but on both occasions, the concourse was just a huge crowd of people.
How did such a tiny space ever get past the planning stages? I understand there may not have been room for more platforms (although I'd dispute that!) but surely the route has been thwarted from expansion since the (new section of the) station was built?

 

[Flying Phil]

I agree it is a small area for people waiting to board trains but the situation is not helped by the late letting people board trains waiting in the platforms - and yes it is difficult to get them cleaned in time.
Of more concern is the uncertainty of gate closing by some staff. They say it is 2 mins before departure, the platform notice boards say 60 seconds...and some irate passengers on Thursday night say the gates were closed 3 or 4 mins before departure!

 

[mallard]

The St. Pancras refurbishment was specified (and of course paid for) almost exclusively by/for Eurostar. Domestic use of the station is nothing more than an afterthought and of course it's poorly laid out. It doesn't help that they've since designated the escalators in such a way that interchange between the MML platforms and Thameslink or HS1 Domestic requires touring half the staton.

 

[Mikey C]

Yes, the domestic sections of STP do feel like an afterthought, and very much second class to the vast area down below given over to Eurostar and all those shops...

 

[edwin_m]

The switch of the escalators does at least mean that they aren't feeding people directly into the most crowded area, and the "balcony" areas north of the Up escalators effectively become part of the queueing area when it's very busy. I consider the concourse is reasonably adequate except when several trains' worth of people are awaiting boarding announcements, but it is likely to be under more pressure with more and longer trains in future.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Being charitable, I would suggest that it was designed in the hope that customers (let's face it, it's essentially a shopping centre which happens to have some platforms) would make use of the facilities in the undercroft before going up to platform level when trains were ready to board.

Unfortunately there is a significant gap between plans and reality, so passengers tend to go straight to the concourse ages before their train is ready to board, with inevitable overcrowding the result.

 

[Taunton]

The MML afterthought is an appalling bit of design, especially compared to when they had the "old" St Pancras pretty much to themselves. What a huge drag it now is from the Underground.

It has of course been made much worse by the current desire to keep everyone waiting outside the barrier until 5 minutes before the train leaves. All this stuff about how the train is being prepared by the cleaners etc is a nonsense - just the same approach is taken with trains just coming in to service from Cricklewood depot.

I just hope they don't have an overcrowding accident there one day. Apparently the escalator change had to be made because this looked a possibility. Yes, at a station which was given loads of modern design awards.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The use of St Pancras does generally involve a fair amount of walking but this shouldn't be problem to anyone unless you are disabled or perhaps an OAP. Given the need to accommodate Eurostar services, the southern end of the MML and high speed services to Kent I don't see how there were any alternatives to the existing design. And it's a huge improvement on the old dreary St Pancras.

 

[swt_passenger]

Perhaps passenger flow modelling assumed many passengers for Luton and Bedford would be on the regular Thameslink services by now?

 

[Flying Phil]

Certainly - as a building, I think the transformation of STP is fantastic. To have incorporated the original building into what is now an international rail terminal/commuter terminal/through route/underground hub/shopping Mall! has been a great achievement - but the MML aspect has suffered.

 

[yorksrob]

The use of St Pancras does generally involve a fair amount of walking but this shouldn't be problem to anyone unless you are disabled or perhaps an OAP. Given the need to accommodate Eurostar services, the southern end of the MML and high speed services to Kent I don't see how there were any alternatives to the existing design. And it's a huge improvement on the old dreary St Pancras.

A relatively simple improvement at the upper concourse level would be to open up the walkway between the front of the station and the South Eastern platforms. This is already there but fenced off.

 

[EM2]

I just hope they don't have an overcrowding accident there one day. Apparently the escalator change had to be made because this looked a possibility. Yes, at a station which was given loads of modern design awards.

The escalator change has resulted in a decrease of 20% in escalator accidents. Too many people were getting to the top of the escalator and stopping to read the departure board, meaning those following often piled into the back of them.

 

[EM2]

A relatively simple improvement at the upper concourse level would be to open up the walkway between the front of the station and the South Eastern platforms. This is already there but fenced off.

Because it's part of the Restricted Zone.

 

[mallard]

Given the need to accommodate Eurostar services, the southern end of the MML and high speed services to Kent I don't see how there were any alternatives to the existing design.

In a fantasy world where I somehow had the ability to design the layout of St. Pancras...

Divide the main station roughly in half, split between Eurostar and MML (which would have full-length platforms within the trainshed). Build additional platforms (for HS1 domestic) in the undercroft. It should have been possible (with some engineering effort) to arrange it such that the upper and lower HS1 tracks run alternately, with the upper level platforms covering the lower level tracks, the real-life arrangement of tracks appears to have more than enough space. The "ramps" would take space away from the lower level platforms, of course, but that's OK since HS1 domestic trains are shorter than Eurostars. Put the Eurostar departure lounge, customs, etc. in either the Hotel building or the buildings on the western side, with access to the platform via bridges, similar to Paris Nord. Eurostar arrivals customs could either be in a small structure at the London end of the platforms or in the structure along the eastern side.

That arrangement would allow a full-width concourse (since Eurostar would not be accessible directly from the concourse) used only for MML passengers roughly on the same site as the station's original concourse. Since the lower level (HS1 domestic) platforms would only take up half the width of the undercroft, there would still be space for an access route to Thameslink and retail spaces, albeit without so much natural light.

Also, a direct underground connection between the Thameslink platforms and the Underground (the northern ticket hall can't be that far from the Thameslink platforms; there's no need for easy access to the Circle/H&C/Met since Farringdon exists) would reduce the amount of foot traffic through the mainline station.

 

[yorksrob]

Because it's part of the Restricted Zone.

Surely there's no actual need for it to be part of the restricted zone. They could just wall it off from the international tracks as has been done on the other side of the tarnished.

 

[EM2]

In a fantasy world where I somehow had the ability to design the layout of St. Pancras...

Divide the main station roughly in half, split between Eurostar and MML (which would have full-length platforms within the trainshed). Build additional platforms (for HS1 domestic) in the undercroft.

The whole reason that the platforms are higher up are because of the need to get over the Regents Canal. Do you think 395s would have enough to get up that gradient?
And you do realise that those cast iron pillars all through the undercroft are actually structural?

Put the Eurostar departure lounge, customs, etc. in either the Hotel building or the buildings on the eastern side, with access to the platform via bridges, similar to Paris Nord.

Where all the station services (gas, electricity, telecom, data etc.) are housed.

 

[Ianno87]

Surely there's no actual need for it to be part of the restricted zone. They could just wall it off from the international tracks as has been done on the other side of the tarnished.

It's not very wide off memory (risk of congestion) and doesn't take you anywhere particularly useful from the SEHS platforms (only to the narrow steps down to the Western tube ticket hall and a convoluted route to a narrow busy pavement on Euston Road). Most pax just want to directly exit the station or go into the tube.

 

[Dr Hoo]

It's not very wide off memory (risk of congestion) and doesn't take you anywhere particularly useful from the SEHS platforms (only to the narrow steps down to the Western tube ticket hall and a convoluted route to a narrow busy pavement on Euston Road). Most pax just want to directly exit the station or go into the tube.

The east side passageway was used a bit during the Olympics but was indeed quite narrow. As already noted, it doesn't really connect with anywhere very useful unless you just happen to be in the Betjeman pub and suddenly realise that you are about to miss your train to Ebbsfleet, etc.

 

[snowball]

as has been done on the other side of the tarnished.

Nice bit of autocorrect there.

 

[DarloRich]

Took a visit to St Pancras but on both occasions, the concourse was just a huge crowd of people.
How did such a tiny space ever get past the planning stages? I understand there may not have been room for more platforms (although I'd dispute that!) but surely the route has been thwarted from expansion since the (new section of the) station was built?

Surely the concourse is below where the shops are with the intention that you relax there with a nice coffee and sticky bun before heading up to your platform at the last moment.............

 

[Mojo]

Because it's part of the Restricted Zone.

Surely there's no actual need for it to be part of the restricted zone. They could just wall it off from the international tracks as has been done on the other side of the tarnished.

It was open and walled off during the Olympics, but with agency crowd-control staff positioned all the way along.

 

[DarloRich]

In a fantasy world where I somehow had the ability to design the layout of St. Pancras...

Divide the main station roughly in half, split between Eurostar and MML (which would have full-length platforms within the trainshed). Build additional platforms (for HS1 domestic) in the undercroft. It should have been possible (with some engineering effort) to arrange it such that the upper and lower HS1 tracks run alternately, with the upper level platforms covering the lower level tracks, the real-life arrangement of tracks appears to have more than enough space. The "ramps" would take space away from the lower level platforms, of course, but that's OK since HS1 domestic trains are shorter than Eurostars. Put the Eurostar departure lounge, customs, etc. in either the Hotel building or the buildings on the western side, with access to the platform via bridges, similar to Paris Nord. Eurostar arrivals customs could either be in a small structure at the London end of the platforms or in the structure along the eastern side.

That arrangement would allow a full-width concourse (since Eurostar would not be accessible directly from the concourse) used only for MML passengers roughly on the same site as the station's original concourse. Since the lower level (HS1 domestic) platforms would only take up half the width of the undercroft, there would still be space for an access route to Thameslink and retail spaces, albeit without so much natural light.

Also, a direct underground connection between the Thameslink platforms and the Underground (the northern ticket hall can't be that far from the Thameslink platforms; there's no need for easy access to the Circle/H&C/Met since Farringdon exists) would reduce the amount of foot traffic through the mainline station.

But that takes away all of the retail and commercial space that helped justify the funding for the station overhaul.

 

[mallard]

But that takes away all of the retail and commercial space that helped justify the funding for the station overhaul.

The point was to counter the "I don't see how there were any alternatives to the existing design" comment, not come up with a fully costed engineering proposal.

Even within the existing design there are things that could be done to improve interchanges, such as linking Thameslink and the Underground's northern ticket hall, adding additional escalators up to the MML, installing departure boards "downstairs" (between the main Underground access and the MML escalators) so that MML passengers are less likely to stop at the top of the escalators, etc.

 

[swt_passenger]

Even within the existing design there are things that could be done to improve interchanges, such as linking Thameslink and the Underground's northern ticket hall...

That apparently would require going below the level of the Fleet sewer, which IIRC from previous discussions is the main reason they didn't attempt it.

 

[jon0844]

Can they extend the building out to the west to create additional standing room, alongside platform 1? Without being there to look, I am not sure if there's scope to build over the road partly - or the lane for taxis.

 

[EM2]

Even within the existing design there are things that could be done to improve interchanges, such as linking Thameslink and the Underground's northern ticket hall,

There's a river in the way.

adding additional escalators up to the MML

Where? There's already two sets of escalators (one pair up, one pair down) and a lift, as well as a lift and staircase at the south end.

installing departure boards "downstairs" (between the main Underground access and the MML escalators) so that MML passengers are less likely to stop at the top of the escalators, etc.

Like this? There are at least two of these before you get the escalator up to p1-4

 

[EM2]

Can they extend the building out to the west to create additional standing room, alongside platform 1? Without being there to look, I am not sure if there's scope to build over the road partly - or the lane for taxis.

No, because of the residents in the flats on the opposite side of the road.

 

[Ianno87]

No, because of the residents in the flats on the opposite side of the road.

And (in my opinion) would be in the wrong place to be of any use, away from the natural desire lines.

 

[Kettledrum]

The MML has been treated as the poor relation for years.

I agree that the MML platforms at St Pancras are poorly located, and this means passengers having to do lots of walking.

The poor management of the ticket gates by the EMT staff compounds the problem. (Lots of passengers funneled through a small number of working gates, whilst other ticket gates set for passengers going the other way - not being used)

DAFT have spent millions trying to shave minutes off journey times, but the relocation of the MML platforms outside the train shed, and poor operation of the ticket gates adds far more time, making the overall door to door journey much longer!

I like the idea of some sort of high level extension to the side of platform one and new alternative exit routes constructed. These could be convenient for taxis but not for the underground. It would be very challenging to squeeze in and build though.

 

[Bald Rick]

There's a river in the way.

Where? There's already two sets of escalators (one pair up, one pair down) and a lift, as well as a lift and staircase at the south end.

Like this? There are at least two of these before you get the escalator up to p1-4

You have written precisely the reply I was going to!

To add slightly, you can't get more escalators in, as that then restricts the width of the main thoroughfare through the station. That is almost always busy; the escalators less so.

The issue is surely just because of the EMT policy re boarding. If they let people on to the platform 15-20 minutes before departure, there wouldn't be a problem.