Zone 2+ travel cards and zone 1 Q

[Howardh]

Looking at the TFL site, if you have a Zone 2 (3,4 etc) card it excludes you from travelling through Zone 1 even if you aren't calling. That's how I read it anyway...could be wrong!

But how would anyone know? EG - there are two routes from Bermondsey (2) to Clapham (2), one takes you through Zone 1, the other longer route keeps you in Zone 2. I've never seen someone check a ticket on the actual tube train (do they??) so when you check out, a machine doesn't know the way you got there, just the station you set off rrom and the station you arrive.

Could the machine flag up that you must have travelled through Zone 1 - even though you haven't?? Would it know that there are longer but legal routes available and assume that's what the pax has done?

Just wondering, cheers!

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

Yes you are correct you do have to have a zone 1 ticked to travel between outer zones via zone1, I think there is one exemption on the east London line.

At some stations such as Richmond you can locate red card readers that can be used to tell the system that you are traveling by a zone 1 avoiding route if you do not use these the system assumes you have travelled via zone 1

 

[Bletchleyite]

You get very occasional on-train inspections which would catch someone out for going via zone 1 when they shouldn't.

 

[Wirewiper]

Canada Water also has the pink (rather than red) Oyster Card readers, so if you travel that way you touch your Oyster Card onto the pink reader when changing at Canada Water to "prove" that you haven't travelled via zone 1.

Alternatively, if you travel from South Bermondsey to Clapham High Road (changing at Queen's Road Peckham or Peckham Rye) that is automatically calculated as a zone 2 only journey.

 

[moogal]

You get very occasional on-train inspections which would catch someone out for going via zone 1 when they shouldn't.

Only if they were using a paper ticket. On an Oyster, so long as you'd touched in (and possibly had the PAYG credit to cover it, though I'm not sure if it checks that) there's nothing to stop you going that way, but it's likely the system would calculate the via zone 1 fare unless it was one of the exceptions mentioned above.

 

[Howardh]

Yes you are correct you do have to have a zone 1 ticked to travel between outer zones via zone1, I think there is one exemption on the east London line.

At some stations such as Richmond you can locate red card readers that can be used to tell the system that you are traveling by a zone 1 avoiding route if you do not use these the system assumes you have travelled via zone 1

Well I never knew that, and the different colours at Canada Water!

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

Well I guess they are the same colour at Richmond it is not exactly scarlet but it is not pink either.

 

[Busaholic]

Well I never knew that, and the different colours at Canada Water!

Don't forget, it all depends whether there's an 'R' in the month as well

 

[Howardh]

Don't forget, it all depends whether there's an 'R' in the month as well

On this forum it's clear that there are so many fares (rail/tube etc) for one journey, never mind owt else, so many different ways to pay for them, so many restrictions, and so hard punishments if they are caught out - I genuinely feel sorry for foriegn visitors who may end up paying for more expensive fares than they ought, or it they do try to reduce their fare by honest means but still get caught out by simple stuff like going between a couple of zone 2 stations but catching a bit of zone one on the way - I'm glad the internet is there to help them these days, otherwise I can see tourist bureau staff wearing "I'm Here To Probably Help But Don't Ask About Rail Fares" T-shirt.
On the flip side, all these various rules, regulations, cards, advances etc do mean if you know your way around then there are bargain fares out there.

 

[MikeWh]

I can't see many tourists having a travelcard which excludes zone 1.

 

[PeterC]

The only "harsh punishments" possible are over the stupid arrangement for boarding trams at Wimbledon. Simply travelling beyond the zones with a travelcard on Oyster just gets you charged the standard fare for the additional zones.

 

[Howardh]

I can't see many tourists having a travelcard which excludes zone 1.

Those staying in the East/Docklands where rooms are cheaper and watching the hockey World Cup @ Lee Valley next summer won't need Zone 1 for most days! Although if there's an all-zones multi-day card they would probably take that however. As a tourist I have travelled to Euston, walked back towards Mornington Crescent (2) or Camden and travelled to LV from there to save a few bob; and I reckon the overground is quicker than the underground (excepting the St Pancras/Stratford International route). Is Wembley Stadium in Zone 1?

 

[Mojo]

Those staying in the East/Docklands where rooms are cheaper and watching the hockey World Cup @ Lee Valley next summer won't need Zone 1 for most days!

How many of them would have gone to the hassle of going to a National Rail station to buy a paper Travelcard and obtain a Photocard? I suspect that the number of tourists that don't use Oyster/CPC is negligible.

You get very occasional on-train inspections which would catch someone out for going via zone 1 when they shouldn't.

Revenue staff can also set up the barriers to reject certain tickets, for a manual inspection; on occasion they have rejected all paper tickets for a manual check.

 

[Howardh]

How many of them would have gone to the hassle of going to a National Rail station to buy a paper Travelcard and obtain a Photocard? I suspect that the number of tourists that don't use Oyster/CPC is negligible.

Why would you need a photocard? Aren't one-day paper travelcards available nowadays?

 

[Mojo]

Why would you need a photocard? Aren't one-day paper travelcards available nowadays?

You haven’t been able to buy a one day Travelcard that doesn’t include zone 1 for a number of years now. Daily Capping that doesn’t include zone 1 has also not existed for the same length of time.

EDIT: they were withdrawn January 2011 https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/london-zone-2-6-travelcard-withdrawn.37581/

 

[Howardh]

You haven’t been able to buy a one day Travelcard that doesn’t include zone 1 for a number of years now. Daily Capping that doesn’t include zone 1 has also not existed for the same length of time.

EDIT: they were withdrawn January 2011 https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/london-zone-2-6-travelcard-withdrawn.37581/

Blimey, never knew that, shows how often I visit London! Ah, well. I suppose those using contactless from 2 - 2+ could stray through 1 and be charged more; or worse still keep in 2+, never enter 1 but still be charges because the system assumes you have been in 1?

 

[Wirewiper]

Blimey, never knew that, shows how often I visit London! Ah, well. I suppose those using contactless from 2 - 2+ could stray through 1 and be charged more; or worse still keep in 2+, never enter 1 but still be charges because the system assumes you have been in 1?

Contactless works exactly the same way as Oyster. If you touch your contactless card on the pink readers when making an interchange at a station outside zone 1, the system knows what to charge you.

 

[Howardh]

Contactless works exactly the same way as Oyster. If you touch your contactless card on the pink readers when making an interchange at a station outside zone 1, the system knows what to charge you.

Must admit, if I hadn't been on here I wouldn't have known. Thanks!

 

[duncanp]

With an Oyster card, TfL can program the system to check for suspicious usage.

For example, if someone touches in at Walthamstow Central with a Zones 2/3 travelcard, and then touches out at Brixton 40 minutes later, it would be reasonable to assume that they took the Victoria Line through Zone 1, as I don't know of a route from Walthamstow to Brixton that would get you there in 40 minutes and avoiding Zone 1.

There are examples where you can go out of your Zone on an Oyster card and the system will assume that you stayed within the Zones. One such example is Fenchurch Street to Blackhorse Road, changing at Barking. I did this journey with a Zones 1 - 3 travelcard, and it did not deduct anything from the PAYG balance, even though Barking is in Zone 4.

 

[Howardh]

With an Oyster card, TfL can program the system to check for suspicious usage.

For example, if someone touches in at Walthamstow Central with a Zones 2/3 travelcard, and then touches out at Brixton 40 minutes later, it would be reasonable to assume that they took the Victoria Line through Zone 1, as I don't know of a route from Walthamstow to Brixton that would get you there in 40 minutes and avoiding Zone 1.

There are examples where you can go out of your Zone on an Oyster card and the system will assume that you stayed within the Zones. One such example is Fenchurch Street to Blackhorse Road, changing at Barking. I did this journey with a Zones 1 - 3 travelcard, and it did not deduct anything from the PAYG balance, even though Barking is in Zone 4.

Yes, the time limits are certainly a way to do it. I can see a challenge coming on here (calling Geoff Marshall) where two people set off and see whether any routes are as quick avoiding Z1 as going through it! Dunno London that well, but with these crossrail projects and trams I wonder....!!

 

[HXX]

My missus has a Z2-4 travelcard and we travel into Z1 all the time, by using PAYG credit to cover the Z1 fare (2.40). So if she was stopped she would be in trouble?

 

[PeterC]

My missus has a Z2-4 travelcard and we travel into Z1 all the time, by using PAYG credit to cover the Z1 fare (2.40). So if she was stopped she would be in trouble?

There *might* be a query if you were caught out of zone without having touched in but there shouldn't be otherwise.

 

[hassaanhc]

You haven’t been able to buy a one day Travelcard that doesn’t include zone 1 for a number of years now. Daily Capping that doesn’t include zone 1 has also not existed for the same length of time.

EDIT: they were withdrawn January 2011 https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/london-zone-2-6-travelcard-withdrawn.37581/

Wow, that increase combined with the January 2015 Off Peak Caps increase would have resulted in some people having a 100% or more increase in 4 years

There are examples where you can go out of your Zone on an Oyster card and the system will assume that you stayed within the Zones. One such example is Fenchurch Street to Blackhorse Road, changing at Barking. I did this journey with a Zones 1 - 3 travelcard, and it did not deduct anything from the PAYG balance, even though Barking is in Zone 4.

There are a number of examples available in South London on the suburban networks run by SWR, Southern or Southeastern. I was lucky I checked using the excellent site by @MikeWh, as the more obvious option of a Z2-5 Travelcard would have left me being charged a Z6 extension each time I travelled due to the journey being defined as using Z4-6, whether I used the less frequent service via Z6 or the far more frequent route via Z2 (although I did actually go via Z6 on all except the occasion there was disruption).

 

[MikeWh]

My missus has a Z2-4 travelcard and we travel into Z1 all the time, by using PAYG credit to cover the Z1 fare (2.40). So if she was stopped she would be in trouble?

No. As long as you touch in at the start of the journey and out at the end and have sufficient credit to pay the extension fare then you will be fine.

There *might* be a query if you were caught out of zone without having touched in but there shouldn't be otherwise.

There's no might about it. If you haven't touched in and are not covered by a travelcard then you will be in trouble.

 

[Wirewiper]

My missus has a Z2-4 travelcard and we travel into Z1 all the time, by using PAYG credit to cover the Z1 fare (2.40). So if she was stopped she would be in trouble?

Why do you think she would be in trouble? Any excess fare due will be calculated and deducted automatically when she touches out at her destination, until then she has every right to be in transit so long as she has touched in at the start of her journey.

 

[IanD]

Blimey, never knew that, shows how often I visit London! Ah, well. I suppose those using contactless from 2 - 2+ could stray through 1 and be charged more; or worse still keep in 2+, never enter 1 but still be charges because the system assumes you have been in 1?

There are journeys that avoid zone 1 but you are still charged as if you travelled via zone 1 even if there is no opportunity to touch pink validators. An example I have been vicitim of is Blackhorse Road to Stepney Green changing at Tottenham Hale and Stratford (which I think is the shortest route and as the change at Tottenham Hale requires a touch out and back in at the gatelines it is obvious you have travelled this way). I have raised this with TFL a number of times and have basically been told to sod off and live with it. If you do this journey via the much more circuitous route via Highbury & Islington and Stratford touching pink validators then you avoid the zone 1 penalty.

There are quite a few more examples of this where TFL seem to have totally ignored the fact that the introduction of regular services between Tottenham Hale and Stratford has led to more "avoiding zone 1" travel opportunities. A pink validator on the Lea Valley platforms at Straford would resolve this. But the OSI at Tottenham Hale should be enough so a much cheaper solution would be a simple database or code change.

 

[PeterC]

There are journeys that avoid zone 1 but you are still charged as if you travelled via zone 1 even if there is no opportunity to touch pink validators. An example I have been vicitim of is Blackhorse Road to Stepney Green changing at Tottenham Hale and Stratford (which I think is the shortest route and as the change at Tottenham Hale requires a touch out and back in at the gatelines it is obvious you have travelled this way). I have raised this with TFL a number of times and have basically been told to sod off and live with it. If you do this journey via the much more circuitous route via Highbury & Islington and Stratford touching pink validators then you avoid the zone 1 penalty.

There are quite a few more examples of this where TFL seem to have totally ignored the fact that the introduction of regular services between Tottenham Hale and Stratford has led to more "avoiding zone 1" travel opportunities. A pink validator on the Lea Valley platforms at Straford would resolve this. But the OSI at Tottenham Hale should be enough so a much cheaper solution would be a simple database or code change.

I knew that touching at a platform yellow reader won't determine routing so it doesn't surprise me that an OSI won't either. The amount of data that can be transferred when you touch a reader is quite limited. I would hope that once everything goes to the back office it will be possible to be more sophisticated about interpreting the user's journeys.

 

[Be3G]

With an Oyster card, TfL can program the system to check for suspicious usage.

For example, if someone touches in at Walthamstow Central with a Zones 2/3 travelcard, and then touches out at Brixton 40 minutes later, it would be reasonable to assume that they took the Victoria Line through Zone 1, as I don't know of a route from Walthamstow to Brixton that would get you there in 40 minutes and avoiding Zone 1.

That's not ‘suspicious usage’ though (unless the traveller didn't have any PAYG credit), that's simply one of the benefits of using Oyster: upon touching out at Brixton, the traveller would be charged a zone 1 PAYG fare as the journey is defined as needing zones 1–3.

Wow, that increase combined with the January 2015 Off Peak Caps increase would have resulted in some people having a 100% or more increase in 4 years

Yep, I'm one of them. I'm still seething over the loss of the 2–6 cap.

 

[Howardh]

With an Oyster or Contactless - what's the single fare (off peak I suppose) going from a Z2 station to Z2 compare with Z1 to Z1, and I note that Z2 to Z2 could be considerable further than 1 to 1?
Gonna see if I can find out...

Some journeys are charged via Zone 1 irrespective of the route taken.

EDIT (TFL Single Fare Finder page)
Warren St 1 to Marble Arch 1 = £2.40
Royal Oak to Hammersmith = £2.40 o/p £2.90 peak.
Warren Street (1) to Hammersmith (2) = £2.40 o/p £2.90 peak.

Hmm, nothing in it. At £2.40 the cheapest fare between stations, unless someone uses the tube/bus for multi-trip, it's a good idea to check the distances and maybe walk!!

 

[matt_world2004]

With an Oyster or Contactless - what's the single fare (off peak I suppose) going from a Z2 station to Z2 compare with Z1 to Z1, and I note that Z2 to Z2 could be considerable further than 1 to 1?
Gonna see if I can find out...

EDIT (TFL Single Fare Finder page)
Warren St 1 to Marble Arch 1 = £2.40
Royal Oak to Hammersmith = £2.40 o/p £2.90 peak.
Warren Street (1) to Hammersmith (2) = £2.40 o/p £2.90 peak.

Hmm, nothing in it. At £2.40 the cheapest fare between stations, unless someone uses the tube/bus for multi-trip, it's a good idea to check the distances and maybe walk!!

1.50 is the cheapest non zone one oyster fare, for example zone 3-5 or 2-6.