Final Electrostar Completed

[bramling]

I read that the old windows took a long time to replace.

I’m sure I remember reading cost was a factor. Quite possibly both combined.

Whatever, I can’t help but think the newer units look slightly odd. Maybe it’s the familiarity with the ribbon glazing, but in my opinion the ribbon glazing definitely looks better. Not that looks really matter that much of course.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Considering how many have been ordered, there's a distinctly Southern slant to where they've gone.

Consider the geographical distribution of most of the non-InterCity electrification...

 

[Mikey C]

Consider the geographical distribution of most of the non-InterCity electrification...

I think it's also down to Derby concentrating on the big orders, which are mainly the London and SE commuter routes.

 

[edwin_m]

I seem to recall a Bombardier person telling me that replacement windows on the original (strip glazed) types had to be glued in with some kind of black gunge, with a clamp to hold them in position while it set. Presumably with the newer type it's good to go as soon as the rubber seal has been put in place.

 

[Wivenswold]

I actually think the ribbon windows make the older Electrostars look really dated but then that design is nearly 20 years old. The newer type of window gives more depth and shape to the profile of the unit.

 

[BRX]

I'm trying to think whether there are any other UK trains that use the ribbon window glazing approach?

 

[Wivenswold]

Class 333s. Another unit that I find aesthetically disappointing.

My dislike of the early Electrostar design shouldn't take away what a success it's been in the UK. It's only really some odd decisions by DfT on interior layout that have given some of them a bad name. The high water mark was probably the 379s. What mighty fine trains they are.

 

[physics34]

I've always wondered what the reason was for the change in window frame design.

as others have said it takes up to 24 hours to replace a window when ribbon glazed compared to standard windows...ad also there has been some rust damage from water finding its why in the gaps around the ribbon glazing.

 

[XCTurbostar]

18 years old? almost ready for the scrap heap

 

[gimmea50anyday]

given that the electrostar is essentially an update of the networker then the design of the train can be traced back to the 165 back in 1998. The clubman 168 was probably the start of the electrostar/turbostar line so taking in those vehicles into account I dont think any train build has lasted as long or as many examples (not counting freight wagons!)

 

[Wivenswold]

18 years old? almost ready for the scrap heap

You say that but time does tick on and it's probably inevitable that some will face the torch during the next 10 years. The 357s come off lease in 5-7 years. If new trains are still cheap then it's likely C2C will opt to become 100% Aventra.

 

[BurtonM]

Considering the design of the Electrostar is as old as that of the 333, I'd say the Electrostar has aged very well.

 

[bramling]

You say that but time does tick on and it's probably inevitable that some will face the torch during the next 10 years. The 357s come off lease in 5-7 years. If new trains are still cheap then it's likely C2C will opt to become 100% Aventra.

The notion of Electrostars going within 10 years borders on ridiculous, however I agree that in the current climate it’s certainly possible.

There’s not *that* much technological difference between the oldest and newest. Compared to the tide mark between a Networker and an Electrostar, technology hasn’t progressed at the same rate as it did in the 1990s. In essence c2c simply doesn’t need a batch of brand new trains just to make up some extra peak capacity, which is about the sum total of it. Certainly from passenger point of view some 387s or 375s would provide a comparable passenger experience.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

when you also bear in mind how long the slammers' stayed in service in DC land, I cant see the electrostars going anywhere anytime soon

 

[XCTurbostar]

Like Wivenswold said, it comes down whether it’s cheaper to continue to maintain them or buy new trains. If the new ones are cheaper then it makes sense. The design is aging really well although.. I will say the original 377/1 design is better than the 377/6 design interior wise, just my opinion.

 

[jopsuk]

There's nothing to stop, for example, the next franchisee to run Southern services from refitting all the 377s to have the same interior.

 

[hwl]

Like Wivenswold said, it comes down whether it’s cheaper to continue to maintain them or buy new trains. If the new ones are cheaper then it makes sense. The design is aging really well although.. I will say the original 377/1 design is better than the 377/6 design interior wise, just my opinion.

377/6 interior is really good when it is rammed as the standing capacity is higher and the dwell times better.

 

[387star]

The interior in the leading and trailing coaches of 377/140-164,377/2 and 377/4-5 is one of the best in the country. 377101-119 are great throughout. I think the very early /1s have the softest seats of all

377120-139 have the worst interior although unlike 375/9 there are small areas of better seating

377/4-5 have a partition in the leading and trailing coaches as well as having the finalised first class featuring a sliding door plug points and two seats longitudinal

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's nothing to stop, for example, the next franchisee to run Southern services from refitting all the 377s to have the same interior.

If I were Southern I'd look to standardise the interiors a bit. Probably all 2+2 (with 2+1 1st) for the Brighton Express and similar with a roughly half and half airline-table mix, and 3+2 (with 2+2 1st) for more local services. They really are a bit of a hotch-potch at the moment. It could be done by just swapping seats between units, I reckon, give or take buying in some wider 1st seats.

 

[delt1c]

given that the electrostar is essentially an update of the networker then the design of the train can be traced back to the 165 back in 1998. The clubman 168 was probably the start of the electrostar/turbostar line so taking in those vehicles into account I dont think any train build has lasted as long or as many examples (not counting freight wagons!)

Where did you get 1998 from, try 1991 when the 1st Networker was constructed

 

[BRX]

Have to say, the electrostars with 2+2 seating, and tables that line with the windows, and gangwayed ends are probably my favourite post-privatisation trains. For journeys in the mostly mild climate of the southeast up to around 2-3 hours they seem very fit for purpose. And I'd prefer to do an 8 hour journey on one of them than a Voyager, except for the mid-carriage door positions which is the downfall of their sister DMUs when used on longer distance routes in, for example, the Scottish Highlands where a mid carriage door opening on a winter night is somewhat unwelcome.

 

[Mikey C]

The notion of Electrostars going within 10 years borders on ridiculous, however I agree that in the current climate it’s certainly possible.

There’s not *that* much technological difference between the oldest and newest. Compared to the tide mark between a Networker and an Electrostar, technology hasn’t progressed at the same rate as it did in the 1990s. In essence c2c simply doesn’t need a batch of brand new trains just to make up some extra peak capacity, which is about the sum total of it. Certainly from passenger point of view some 387s or 375s would provide a comparable passenger experience.

The c2c network is pretty straightforward, while it's nice to have a fleet of shiny and identical trains, it's not essential, and not every route can have a fleet of identical trains.

 

[Altnabreac]

Yep. Kings Lynn it is! Whereas the Electrostar’s diesel brother the Turbostar runs as far north as Inverness!

Even further north than than Inverness, given they regularly go to Elgin.

 

[gallafent]

[…]165 back in 1998[…]

165 back in 1990 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_165 ) …

 

[Fincra5]

If I were Southern I'd look to standardise the interiors a bit. Probably all 2+2 (with 2+1 1st) for the Brighton Express and similar with a roughly half and half airline-table mix, and 3+2 (with 2+2 1st) for more local services. They really are a bit of a hotch-potch at the moment. It could be done by just swapping seats between units, I reckon, give or take buying in some wider 1st seats.

I doubt you'd see 2+1 dedicated first, more likely all standard class trains. Brighton Express are currently GatEx, which is likely to stay. Other than 313s and 455s Southern likes to have a "Common Pool" of units, so you'd be unlikely to see dedicated Brighton Express units.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt you'd see 2+1 dedicated first, more likely all standard class trains. Brighton Express are currently GatEx, which is likely to stay. Other than 313s and 455s Southern likes to have a "Common Pool" of units, so you'd be unlikely to see dedicated Brighton Express units.

That being the case, why does it have so many layouts? There appear to be four - 2+2 throughout, 2+2 in end vehicles and 3+2 in middle ones, 3+2 throughout and 2+2 ironing boards.

 

[superalbs]

That being the case, why does it have so many layouts? There appear to be four - 2+2 throughout, 2+2 in end vehicles and 3+2 in middle ones, 3+2 throughout and 2+2 ironing boards.

There's also 2+2 carriage ends, 3+2 centre, bizarrely.

No 3+2 throughout on SN 377s though.

 

[Kite159]

There's also 2+2 carriage ends, 3+2 centre, bizarrely.

No 3+2 throughout on SN 377s though.

Isn't there a batch of 377/1s which are mostly 3+2 seating?

 

[physics34]

There's nothing to stop, for example, the next franchisee to run Southern services from refitting all the 377s to have the same interior.

it would be wise for them to refit the 3 cars and a batch of 4 cars for metro services to cram more seats in for sure there was even a mention of this in a network rail document a couple of years ago. That might upset east grinstead people though who currently get comfy 377/3s.

 

[physics34]

That being the case, why does it have so many layouts? There appear to be four - 2+2 throughout, 2+2 in end vehicles and 3+2 in middle ones, 3+2 throughout and 2+2 ironing boards.

Confusion about whether they will or will not be retaining first class when built was one reason given