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Ticket didn't fall out of the machine

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Chirality

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Hi,

I have a journey from Durham to London King's Cross tomorrow morning. I booked using a self-service machine, and the two tickets I got were the customer receipt and a coupon that wasn't mine - no actual ticket. I asked at the desk, and they said that when the manager was there (tomorrow morning, before my train thankfully) they can check inside the machine, but if it isn't there there's nothing they can do. There's a chance my ticket will fall out when someone else is getting their tickets. If my ticket is lost, is there anything I can do?
 
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najaB

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... they said that when the manager was there (tomorrow morning, before my train thankfully) they can check inside the machine, but if it isn't there there's nothing they can do. There's a chance my ticket will fall out when someone else is getting their tickets. If my ticket is lost, is there anything I can do?
Unfortunately, if the ticket prints but doesn't drop out there's not much that can be done other than open the machine and retrieve it. They *might* let you travel if the machine has any history of malfunctioning in the past but there's no automatic right of travel.
 

Hadders

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There is a procedure to deal with exactly this type of situation. It was posted on this forum a few weeks ago.

EDIT: Here you go, courtesy of @OwlMan

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tod-problems.155065/#post-3142582

The following clauses contain examples of some common problems that can occur when a customer is collecting ToD tickets from a Self-Service Ticket Vending Machine (SSTVM) and processes for managing them. Local instructions may be issued by some Train Operators which vary or replace some of these processes, in particular in Penalty Fare areas.

1. The customer has no CTR reference or documentation for ToD collection.
a)If a customer has no CTR reference or is unable to provide any documentary evidence to support a claim for a ToD collection then the customer should be told that that they must purchase a new ticket or to contact the seller with whom they made the booking to resolve the problem.

2. SSTVM is working but the customer is unable to recall the booking.
a)Ask the customer for the CTR reference and the payment card used for the purchase and recall the booking (where the customer is unable to present the same card request the purchase of a new ticket).
or
If the ToD seller has set the CTR reference to permit collection using any payment card (Flag 3) then recall the booking with a different payment card (where no payment card is presented but the seller has set the collection to ‘any card’ collection (Flag 3) then subject to photographic identity confirming the name of the customer (e.g. driving licence or similar id as determined by the issuing office owning TOC) the tickets may be issued.)
b)If there is more than one journey booked under a single reference select the ticket/tickets to be issued.
c)Issue the selected tickets.
d)Ask the customer to sign the printed receipt and retain with the shift balance.

3. The Customer has no supporting documentation but does have a CTR reference.
a)Ask the customer for the CTR reference and the payment card used for the purchase and recall the booking (where the customer cannot present the same card request the purchase of a new ticket unless local instructions apply).
or
If the ToD seller has set the CTR reference to permit collection using any payment card (Flag 3) then recall the booking with a different payment card (where no payment card is presented but the seller has set the collection to ‘any card’ collection (Flag 3) then subject to photographic identity confirming the name of the customer (e.g. driving licence or similar id as determined by the issuing office owning TOC) the tickets may be issued).
b)If there is more than one journey booked under a single reference select the ticket/tickets to be issued.
c)Issue the selected tickets.
d)Ask the customer to sign the printed receipt and retain.

4. The customer is trying to collect at a location that is not a ToD issuing location.
a)Ask the customer for evidence (such as the confirmation email they received from their ToD seller) to ascertain whether they were informed that they could collect their ToD at this location.
b)Issue the ticket as in 2 and 3 above, if possible (subject to local instructions).
or
c)Notify the customer of ToD issuing locations where collection can be made.
or
d)If travelling immediately sell the customer a new ticket and advise them to contact their ToD seller about a refund for the uncollected ToD.

5. Some, but not all tickets are printed/part printed.
Duplicate tickets can only be issued if a ToD CTR reference number can be supplied and the CTR successfully recalled for ticketing. Any part printed tickets must be handed over by the customer.
If there is a print failure during ticket printing at the SSTVM, a message will appear on the screen advising the customer to collect their tickets from the Ticket Office.
a)Collect from the customer all the tickets that were printed.
b)If possible, recall the CTR and check the status of the ToD booking using a TIS.
c)If the CTR cannot be recalled by the ticket office TIS, station staff should use the Live Sales Management (LSM) Console to review the status of the ToD booking.
d)If the LSM Console displays the status of the CTR as set to ‘P’ (print failure) the users of some TIS may be able to over-ride this status and re-issue the full set of tickets.
e) If the LSM Console reports the status as ‘Locked’ then;
(a) Users authorised to unlock CTRs should request an ‘Unlock’ using the LSM console.
(b) Users not authorised to unlock CTRs should call the LSM helpdesk. Requests to unlock CTRs will be managed by Smart421’s technical support team. The service is available seven days a week between the hours of 08:00 and 18:00 and can be contacted on 0845 120 5499.
When calling the LSM Helpdesk, station staff must have the following information available in order to proceed.
1. Name
2. Location (Station).
3. Answer to a secret question which has been defined by the TOC.
Unlocking should allow the ToD to be recalled and the tickets issued.
f)Ask the customer to complete Parts 1 & 2 of a ToD Duplicate Tickets Record Form.
g)If possible, check how many tickets were printed, using the SSTVM Supervisor Terminal. Keep evidence of this and submit with the operator’s balance sheet at the end of the shift.
h)If there is more than one journey booked under a single CTR, then the operator must select the ticket/tickets to be issued.
i)Complete Part 3 of the ToD Duplicate Tickets record Form with the details of the tickets issued.
j)Ask the customer to sign the ToD Duplicate Tickets Record Form in Part 4.
k)Provide the authorisation in Part 5.
l)Give the complete set of new tickets to the customer.
m)Mark the part printed tickets as cancelled and attach to the ToD Duplicate Tickets Record form.
n)Retain the ToD Duplicate Tickets Record Form at the TOC central accounting point.

6. No tickets are printed.
Example 1
If there is a print failure before printing of the first ticket at the SSTVM, a message will appear on the screen advising the customer to collect their tickets from the Ticket Office.
Duplicate tickets can only be issued if a ToD CTR reference number can be supplied and the CTR successfully recalled for ticketing.
a) If possible, recall the CTR and check the status of the ToD booking using a TIS.
b) If the CTR cannot be recalled by the ticket office TIS station staff should use the Live Sales Management (LSM) Console to review the status of the ToD booking
c) If the LSM Console displays the status of the CTR as set to ‘P’ (print failure) the users of some TIS may be able to over-ride this status and re-issue the full set of tickets.
d) If the LSM Console reports the status as ‘Locked’ then;
(i) Users authoried to unlock CTRs should request an ‘Unlock’ using the LSM console.
(ii) Users not authorised to unlock CTRs should call the LSM helpdesk. Requests to unlock CTRs will be managed by Smart421’s technical support team. The service is available seven days a week between the hours of 08:00 and 18:00 and can be contacted on 0845 120 5499;
When calling the LSM Helpdesk, station staff must have the following information available in order to proceed.
1. Name
2. Location (Station).
3. Answer to a secret question which has been defined by the TOC.
e)Ask the customer to complete Parts 1 & 2 of a ToD Duplicate Tickets Record Form.
f)If possible, check how many tickets were printed, using the SSTVM Supervisor Terminal. Keep evidence of this and submit with the operator’s balance sheet at the end of the shift.
g)If there is more than one journey booked under a single CTR, then the operator must select the ticket/tickets to be issued.
h)Complete Part 3 of the ToD Replacement Tickets Record Form with the details of the tickets issued.
i)Ask the customer to sign the ToD Duplicate Tickets Record Form in Part 4.
j)Provide the authorisation in Part 5.
k)Mark the part printed tickets as cancelled and attach to the ToD Duplicate Tickets Record form.
l)Retain the ToD Duplicate Tickets Record Form at the TOC central accounting point.
Example 2
When a customer alleges that no tickets have been printed, however there is no evidence of SSTVM malfunction.
a) If possible, recall the CTR and check the status of the ToD booking using a TIS.
b) If the CTR cannot be recalled by the ticket office TIS station staff should use the Live Sales Management (LSM) Console to review the status of the ToD booking
c) If the LSM Console displays the status of the CTR as set to ‘P’ (print failure) the users of some TIS may be able to over-ride this status and re-issue the full set of tickets.
d) If the LSM Console reports the status as ‘Locked’ then;
(a) Users authoried to unlock CTRs should request an ‘Unlock’ using the LSM console.
(b) Users not authorised to unlock CTRs should call the LSM helpdesk. Requests to unlock CTRs will be managed by Smart421’s technical support team. The service is available seven days a week between the hours of 08:00 and 18:00 and can be contacted on 0845 120 5499.
When calling the LSM Helpdesk, station staff must have the following information available in order to proceed.
1. Name
2. Location (Station).
3. Answer to a secret question which has been defined by the TOC.
e) Using the LSM Console, check the status of the CTR is ‘fully issued’ then check the issuing location.
f) If the issuing location is a SSTVM at the same location as the ticket office then local instructions for ticketing the passenger must apply. Customers should not be referred back to the ToD seller where the LSM Console or LSM Help Desk is able to confirm that the complete issue of all the tickets has taken place at a SSTVM at the calling location.

7. SSTVM and ticket office machines are unable to recall a ToD booking
This process will enable the customer to travel without being asked to pay again because of a system failure and will protect against any possible financial loss if the fault is due to the seller.
Replacement tickets can only be issued if a ToD CTR reference number can be supplied and the customer's journey details can be verified.
a) Request from the customer proof of purchase i.e. a receipt from the seller including CTR reference number.
b) Where no proof exists, request the purchase of a new ticket. Subject to local instructions the customer may be allowed to travel and collect their ToD tickets at the first opportunity. For issuing locations in Penalty Fare areas local instructions may replace the above processes.
c) If possible, recall the CTR and check the status of the ToD booking using a TIS.
d) If the CTR cannot be recalled by the ticket office TIS, station staff should use the Live Sales Management (LSM) Console to review the status of the ToD booking to ensure it has not already been issued.
(e) If the ToD booking has a status of already being issued, the customer must either;
(i) Buy a new ticket or
(ii) Seek assistance from the TOC customer service department.
(f) If the ToD booking has a status of not already being issued and is available for collection, then ask the customer to fill in Parts 1 and 2 of a Replacement Tickets Record Form.
g) Issue equivalent replacement tickets.
h) Complete Part 3 of the ToD Replacement Tickets Record Form with the details of the tickets issued.
i) Ask the customer to sign the declaration in Part 4.
j) Provide the authorisation in Part 5.
k) The customer may then be given the tickets and must be informed that any seat reservations previously made cannot be recalled owing to the system failure. It must be explained that compensation can be claimed through the Passenger’s Charter if the customer is unable to find any seats upon the train.
l) If the problem is due to incorrect placement of the CTR this will result in the seller bearing the full cost of the replacement tickets.
m) If the problem is due to due to a fault with the issuing TIS or connection to the CTR database, then the issuer is liable for the cost of the replacement tickets. The retailer may retrospectively seek recompense for the replacement tickets issued for which they have been charged.

Virgin Trains (admittedly West Coast rather than East Coast) also say:

http://trainsupport.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1747

As part of the agreement to provide Self Service tickets the station is responsible to assist with the collection if a customer is unable to collect their tickets from a machine.

I assume the same principle applies to all train operating companies.
 
Last edited:

Chirality

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There is a procedure to deal with exactly this type of situation. It was posted on this forum a few weeks ago.

EDIT: Here you go, courtesy of @OwlMan

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tod-problems.155065/#post-3142582



Virgin Trains (admittedly West Coast rather than East Coast) also say:

http://trainsupport.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1747



I assume the same principle applies to all train operating companies.

Thanks for the help - is there any way I can show this quote of The Manual to the staff at the station tomorrow morning? Or do I just have to hope for the best?
 

gray1404

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The problem here is the staff should have sorted this out at the time. You should not have been told to come back tomorrow and it certainly should not require a Manager there to deal with the situation. What would they have done if you had been travelling right away? They should have opened that TVM up right away and sorted out the problem there and then. Defiantly put in a complaint to the Customer Service department of the company managing the station.
 

Haywain

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If I read the OP correctly, he was buying a ticket rather than collecting ToD tickets. It is the latter that the lengthy quote refers to.
 

Hadders

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If I read the OP correctly, he was buying a ticket rather than collecting ToD tickets. It is the latter that the lengthy quote refers to.

Maybe the OP could confirm? In any case there ought to be a similar process, especially with many tickets costing in excess of £100. Staff really should be more proactive, as a minimum making a note in a handover log, rather than just saying 'come back tomorrow, nothing I can do'.

If all else fails the OP should consider a chargeback via their credit/debit card provider.
 

FQTV

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The problem here is the staff should have sorted this out at the time. You should not have been told to come back tomorrow and it certainly should not require a Manager there to deal with the situation. What would they have done if you had been travelling right away? They should have opened that TVM up right away and sorted out the problem there and then. Defiantly put in a complaint to the Customer Service department of the company managing the station.

Whenever I have had this problem at Durham or elsewhere, a member of the booking office staff has always opened the machine and checked for me. Unlike at some other stations, it's always been immediate.

With regard to the OP's admittedly stressful situation: could I ask whether 'the desk' the booking office in the main (Southbound) building, or the window opposite Costa around the corner, or the platform office on the Northbound side?

As far as I'm aware, only the staff in the booking office would have access to the machines, as the window and the Northbound office are staffed by platform folks only. They may indeed have not been able to assist, other than to accompany to an immediately-departing service and advising the guard.

The booking office itself has had some serious staffing shortages of late, leading to full closure at times, and a sole member of staff working at other times. This may have been relevant here. I'm aware that there have been some new members of staff very recently, so I suppose that it's also possible that they don't know how to deal with machine problems in terms of getting into the inner workings.

Hopefully the OP gets it sorted quickly; I mention the above mostly because I always find the Durham booking office very obliging.
 

Chirality

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Maybe the OP could confirm? In any case there ought to be a similar process, especially with many tickets costing in excess of £100. Staff really should be more proactive, as a minimum making a note in a handover log, rather than just saying 'come back tomorrow, nothing I can do'.

If all else fails the OP should consider a chargeback via their credit/debit card provider.

Sorry for any confusion. I booked the tickets on the 21st November and chose the self-service option (next time I'll print them at home or use e-tickets) and went to collect them yesterday.

Whenever I have had this problem at Durham or elsewhere, a member of the booking office staff has always opened the machine and checked for me. Unlike at some other stations, it's always been immediate.

With regard to the OP's admittedly stressful situation: could I ask whether 'the desk' the booking office in the main (Southbound) building, or the window opposite Costa around the corner, or the platform office on the Northbound side?

As far as I'm aware, only the staff in the booking office would have access to the machines, as the window and the Northbound office are staffed by platform folks only. They may indeed have not been able to assist, other than to accompany to an immediately-departing service and advising the guard.

The booking office itself has had some serious staffing shortages of late, leading to full closure at times, and a sole member of staff working at other times. This may have been relevant here. I'm aware that there have been some new members of staff very recently, so I suppose that it's also possible that they don't know how to deal with machine problems in terms of getting into the inner workings.

Hopefully the OP gets it sorted quickly; I mention the above mostly because I always find the Durham booking office very obliging.

I think it was the booking office on the southbound side (platform 1), next to the Station Approach (up North Road). It was pretty understaffed, there was only one staff member there that late (this was at 6pm though).

Just to update my situation; I went to the station this morning and asked the supervisor about my situation - he wrote me a Travel Ticket, saying it would be good to use. Have to say that was surprisingly quick and easy to resolve after the stress of last night. Can definitely confirm that it was prompt. Thanks for the help everyone!
 

najaB

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They should have opened that TVM up right away and sorted out the problem there and then.
That's all fine and good, but what should they do if they don't have a key? Go at the machine with a sledgehammer?
Staff really should be more proactive, as a minimum making a note in a handover log...
And you know that they didn't how, exactly? Given the lack of fuss when the OP returned this morning I rather suspect they did just that.
Just to update my situation; I went to the station this morning and asked the supervisor about my situation - he wrote me a Travel Ticket, saying it would be good to use. Have to say that was surprisingly quick and easy to resolve after the stress of last night. Can definitely confirm that it was prompt. Thanks for the help everyone!
Glad to hear it.
 

talldave

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Just to update my situation; I went to the station this morning and asked the supervisor about my situation - he wrote me a Travel Ticket, saying it would be good to use. Have to say that was surprisingly quick and easy to resolve after the stress of last night. Can definitely confirm that it was prompt. Thanks for the help everyone!

Had that outcome happened yesterday, there would have been no stress and you'd have probably had a better night's sleep.
 

cuccir

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As a passenger, it has seemed to me that Durham station has had some problems with staffing over the last 6 months. There seem to have been quite a few evenings where the ticket office has closed early, and a few Sundays when it has been shut completely, which I presume is staffing-related. So it wouldn't surprise me if late on a Sunday evening there was minimal staff there and that the clerk was not in a position to leave the ticket office to help.

The cynic in me would wonder if this is part of Virgin's hope to reduce the number of ticket offices and replace them with 'customer zones'....
 

FQTV

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Sorry for any confusion. I booked the tickets on the 21st November and chose the self-service option (next time I'll print them at home or use e-tickets) and went to collect them yesterday.



I think it was the booking office on the southbound side (platform 1), next to the Station Approach (up North Road). It was pretty understaffed, there was only one staff member there that late (this was at 6pm though).

Just to update my situation; I went to the station this morning and asked the supervisor about my situation - he wrote me a Travel Ticket, saying it would be good to use. Have to say that was surprisingly quick and easy to resolve after the stress of last night. Can definitely confirm that it was prompt. Thanks for the help everyone!

Good to read that you're sorted.

As cuccir has observed above, too, there have been lots of cases recently when the office has had to close at comparatively busy times. In fairness, they do seem to have some new staff in now, so maybe all is not lost for the future of that office.

That said, I also (OT) note that the broken door at the South end of the concourse has now been boarded over for what must be six months, with no sign of a repair being effected.

Presumably Virgin Trains East Coast can't scrape together the cash for a new pane of glass.

Smashing, as they would probably say.
 

142blue

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I'd have opened the machine personally and at the least give the customer the benefit of the doubt. Only part I find confusing is that it gave a collection receipt but no other tickets as usually the collection receipt is the last thing to print.

Glad to hear the OP got a result and they were allowed to travel.
 

najaB

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Surely the key should live in the ticket office?!
I expect that it does, however it's possible that - given the abovementioned staff shortages - it lives somewhere that the staff didn't have access to (e.g. the manager's office).
 

Calicos

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I'd have opened the machine personally and at the least give the customer the benefit of the doubt. Only part I find confusing is that it gave a collection receipt but no other tickets as usually the collection receipt is the last thing to print.

Glad to hear the OP got a result and they were allowed to travel.

I believe the Virgin SSTVMs are an exception, the Glasgow Central ones print the collection receipts first.
 

radamfi

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I got the message "No ticket could be produced! Please contact the Ticket Office" yesterday. No coupons were produced. I tried the adjacent machine and it said that some tickets have already been collected. The ticket office was closed at that time so I just got on the train. In the end, there was no ticket check.

TOD is too unreliable.
 

radamfi

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How many tickets have you collected, and how many times have you had problems which couldn't be easily rectified?

That was the first time out of many, but it was still nerve-wracking, and not a situation I want to repeat. I had changed trains along the way and had no time to visit the ticket office, otherwise I would have missed the train. So I was expecting at least an argument with a guard because I didn't visit the ticket office but I was lucky that there was no ticket check.
 

najaB

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It is if I end up with a criminal record. I was travelling ticketless in a Penalty Fare area.
For which you would (at worst) have ended up with a Penalty Fare - which itself was highly unlikely as the machine produced an error code which would be in the log.

There was zero chance of you getting a criminal record.
 

Marton

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I take a picture of the non functioning machine or notice if this happens to me.
 

Bletchleyite

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So, anything less that 100% reliability is "too unreliable"?

It isn’t hard to add sensors to ensure the tickets drop, and to mark the booking as not collected if they don’t. FWIW I have never, ever had a cash machine incorrectly issue to me.

The problem is that the railway would rather inconvenience passengers than take the minute risk of duplicates being misused.
 
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