Dispatch process in DOO with a dispatcher present on the platform

[Fred26]

ARL? That's Arlesey.

 

[APUK002]

It depends on the station to be honest and the results of any risk assessment. Busy platforms often have dispatch because like discussed above it helps passenger flow by having dispatchers on the platform speeding up boarding and the dispatch procedure because the driver doesn’t have to spend time viewing 12 screens with passengers all over the place whilst trying to do the safety check and also stations with multiple and set back entry points to the platforms like East Croydon etc.

On Southern majority of stations which had conductor dispatch have retained DOO dispatch with agency staff brought into plug the gaps with the requirement for extra staff but then I believe they pretty much retained the previous dispatch plans at least on the BML so it really depends on what happens when they presumably review these with the roll out of Thameslink programme services next year. You have to also remember platform staff do more than just dispatch they also lock and unlock trains such as 455 stock for short platforms, lock Empty Coaching Stock and split and attach. I wouldn’t say they retain dispatch though just for customer service, like with the OBS you can still have staff present for customer service even if they are not involved with the dispatch process.

Problem with CD/RA is this really only benefits the TOC as they are the ones saving money on staffing costs so Network Rail are understandably reluctant to install this as there is no cost benefit to them. If busy mainline stations such as East Croydon don’t have CD indicators and the staff have to walk back and forth to push the RA I can’t see any other stations having it installed.

I am not sure on the situation with Network Rail managed stations in regards to dispatch arrangements but stations managed by TOCs at least it is up to them to produce a risk assessment and provide staff dependent on the findings of this. Thameslink stations have just had Dispatch removed and they have CD/RA indicators this isn’t a safeguard for dispatch at all as they will just change the dispatch plan.

I do think that dispatch will begin to be phased out as newer stock such as the 700s is being rolled out with much more reliable cameras and equipment and lighting is upgraded accordingly. From the TOC point of view the less people involved in dispatch and safety critical activity the better means they don’t have to worry about having first to last cover and waiting for dispatchers to become available at busy stations.

I thinkthisto

 

[APUK002]

ARL? That's Arlesey.

Yes,Arlesey

 

[Bromley boy]

A reminder was recently issued that lights on these bats should only be used in darkness or poor visibility. A clean white bat, without lights, and green flag should now usually be used during daylight hours. In practice, this recommendation does nothing to improve visibility - so you and I can guess the staff reaction to it...

These illuminated bats, apparently acquired at considerable expense, do appear to have replaced traditional "bat and flag" completely at some locations, and are used in all weathers and all times of day of night. The problem is after a few months of use the lights often don't work, or only work intermittently, so the dispatcher has to verbally say "take it as green" when they give you the "RA" indication.

The traditional plain white bag and flag worked far better and I wish they would go back to it, to be honest.

 

[Fred26]

These illuminated bats, apparently acquired at considerable expense, do appear to have replaced traditional "bat and flag" completely at some locations, and are used in all weathers and all times of day of night. The problem is after a few months of use the lights often don't work, or only work intermittently, so the dispatcher has to verbally say "take it as green" when they give you the "RA" indication.

The traditional plain white bag and flag worked far better and I wish they would go back to it, to be honest.

That's just laziness. The batteries need changing, that's all. It's not difficult. There's even a yellow LED in the centre that tells you when to change the batteries.
The bats shouldn't be used like that during the day anyway. During daylight it should be bat & flag, with the disco bat in use during darkness.

 

[Fred26]

Yes,Arlesey

Yes, I know, so the OP doesn't make sense.

 

[Bromley boy]

That's just laziness. The batteries need changing, that's all. It's not difficult. There's even a yellow LED in the centre that tells you when to change the batteries.
The bats shouldn't be used like that during the day anyway. During daylight it should be bat & flag, with the disco bat in use during darkness.

In the last year or so, my locations have definitely stopped using bat and flag - I’ve seen it once or twice when the “disco bat” has been US. I’m sure you’re right about the batteries - it’s the usual old nonsense of no spare batteries being made available.

I actually think it’s a potentially dangerous distraction as often the dispatcher is fiddling around with the bat, trying to get the lights to work, when they’re supposed to be performing the train safety check.

 

[Mojo]

Yes, I know, so the OP doesn't make sense.

ARL means “Arriva Rail London” which is the Toc that operates the London Overground concession, previously operated by Lorol and still sometimes referred to as this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Making an LED torch is hardly a difficult job. If they can't make a light-up dispatch bat work reliably, I really do despair.

 

[Clip]

Making an LED torch is hardly a difficult job. If they can't make a light-up dispatch bat work reliably, I really do despair.

As has been mentioned its a battery issue and unfortunatley batteries and the like are always dissapearin from equipment due to people not wanting to pay for their own

 

[Fred26]

It's easy enough to order batteries. At my location there are always plenty.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As has been mentioned its a battery issue and unfortunatley batteries and the like are always dissapearin from equipment due to people not wanting to pay for their own

Nothing new there...as an aside isn't that why Bardic lamps use a specific design of battery rather than something like a PP9 radio battery (very common back then) or standard spring-top 6V battery?

 

[Bromley boy]

As has been mentioned its a battery issue and unfortunatley batteries and the like are always dissapearin from equipment due to people not wanting to pay for their own

I hope that isn't the case, I really do. People are stealing batteries from safety critical equipment to avoid buying their own?! Good lord.

 

[jon0844]

In the last year or so, my locations have definitely stopped using bat and flag - I’ve seen it once or twice when the “disco bat” has been US. I’m sure you’re right about the batteries - it’s the usual old nonsense of no spare batteries being made available.

I actually think it’s a potentially dangerous distraction as often the dispatcher is fiddling around with the bat, trying to get the lights to work, when they’re supposed to be performing the train safety check.

It's bat and flag in daylight hours around here, and it can't be hard to source 2 C batteries for a bat - even just popping out to a nearby shop and demanding someone arranges petty cash.

If staff are nicking batteries, someone should be clamping down hard on it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

C cells are not commonly used these days anyway! Only thing I have that takes them is the outside LED lights on my garage, and they're fairly unusual ones.

 

[pt_mad]

It depends on the station to be honest and the results of any risk assessment. Busy platforms often have dispatch because like discussed above it helps passenger flow by having dispatchers on the platform speeding up boarding and the dispatch procedure because the driver doesn’t have to spend time viewing 12 screens with passengers all over the place whilst trying to do the safety check and also stations with multiple and set back entry points to the platforms like East Croydon etc.

On Southern majority of stations which had conductor dispatch have retained DOO dispatch with agency staff brought into plug the gaps with the requirement for extra staff but then I believe they pretty much retained the previous dispatch plans at least on the BML so it really depends on what happens when they presumably review these with the roll out of Thameslink programme services next year. You have to also remember platform staff do more than just dispatch they also lock and unlock trains such as 455 stock for short platforms, lock Empty Coaching Stock and split and attach. I wouldn’t say they retain dispatch though just for customer service, like with the OBS you can still have staff present for customer service even if they are not involved with the dispatch process.

Problem with CD/RA is this really only benefits the TOC as they are the ones saving money on staffing costs so Network Rail are understandably reluctant to install this as there is no cost benefit to them. If busy mainline stations such as East Croydon don’t have CD indicators and the staff have to walk back and forth to push the RA I can’t see any other stations having it installed.

I am not sure on the situation with Network Rail managed stations in regards to dispatch arrangements but stations managed by TOCs at least it is up to them to produce a risk assessment and provide staff dependent on the findings of this. Thameslink stations have just had Dispatch removed and they have CD/RA indicators this isn’t a safeguard for dispatch at all as they will just change the dispatch plan.

I do think that dispatch will begin to be phased out as newer stock such as the 700s is being rolled out with much more reliable cameras and equipment and lighting is upgraded accordingly. From the TOC point of view the less people involved in dispatch and safety critical activity the better means they don’t have to worry about having first to last cover and waiting for dispatchers to become available at busy stations.

So agency staff are dispatching at some locations? Where? And how do they get around this? Surely properly trained dispatch staff should be employed as permanent employees?

Re: the dispatch risk assessments. It was mentioned that the TOC does the risk assessment. But take a station like say Wolverhampton in the West Midlands for example. It was stipulated some time ago that everything must be given the RA there. So would it have been the TOC (VT) who stipulated this? As I would have guessed it would more likely have been Network Rail due to infrastructure? And when this station transfers to West Midlands Railway next year, will it be up to the new TOC whether they retain enough staff to provide the RA or will Network Rail insist everything needs RA due to potential SASSPADs?

And what about all those stations on the WCML which dispatch 390s with the RA. Is that at the discretion of VT or do network rail require this due to SASSPADs?


So you said Thameslink have just had dispatch removed? Where would this be? And was it a mass removal of platform dispatch?


Also I wondered which method of dispatch that drivers (or any staff) would say is most reliable: platform bat and flag dispatch or CD/RA platform dispatch?
Perhaps RA/CD would not need to be installed now as bat and flag is just as good if not better?



Finally, it was said that customer service can be covered without dispatch duties. So have there been TOCs (eg. Thameslink) who have removed dispatch staff but still provide customer service platform staff in some form? (I have no idea what form or whether they'd be permanent employees?

 

[superhands]

Thameslink there staff used to dispatch trains from Bedford, Luton, St Albans, City Thameslink and Blackfriars.
The staff at Bedford and Luton still dispatch the East Midlands trains that stop there (I think) while the staff at other stations do customer care and other duties like lost property and passenger infomation and crowd control, also St Albans, West hampstead and Kentish town make sure all passengers are off the terminating trains.

In my eyes best method of dispatch is a Guard next would be dispatch staff last is CD/RA the bad thing about the RA indicator is that once the train is moving the only realstic way to stop the train is an emergency call to the signaller at a few locations the dispatch staff have or did have a direct radio to the signal box, but if someone has fell under a train and it's not at one of the few locations it's hard to get the train stop straight away

 

[Filton Bank]

Also I wondered which method of dispatch that drivers (or any staff) would say is most reliable: platform bat and flag dispatch or CD/RA platform dispatch?
Perhaps RA/CD would not need to be installed now as bat and flag is just as good if not better?

If the RA is interlocked with the signalling, such that the RA cannot be given with the signal at danger, it helps mitigate the risk of a SASSPAD.

However, both require human input, therefore both are prone to human error. I've been involved in despatch irregularities in the past. On one occasion CD & RA were given in the wrong order, on another the despatcher went into autopilot and showed the RA without properly checking that the BILs were all out (there was a door jammed open), and on another I was shown green flag vice bat.

Drivers are prone to human error too e.g., starting to move the train before the RA is given - often an almost Pavlovian reaction to hearing the clunk of interlock circuit relays closing.

 

[Clip]

I hope that isn't the case, I really do. People are stealing batteries from safety critical equipment to avoid buying their own?! Good lord.

Petty theft happens everywhere and I didn't say from the bats themselves but the store maybe where they are kept?

 

[APUK002]

That's just laziness. The batteries need changing, that's all. It's not difficult. There's even a yellow LED in the centre that tells you when to change the batteries.
The bats shouldn't be used like that during the day anyway. During daylight it should be bat & flag, with the disco bat in use during darkness.

Ooo smart then, I think it’s called a ‘despatch bat’ but disco bat sounds kl

 

[APUK002]

If the RA is interlocked with the signalling, such that the RA cannot be given with the signal at danger, it helps mitigate the risk of a SASSPAD.

However, both require human input, therefore both are prone to human error. I've been involved in despatch irregularities in the past. On one occasion CD & RA were given in the wrong order, on another the despatcher went into autopilot and showed the RA without properly checking that the BILs were all out (there was a door jammed open), and on another I was shown green flag vice bat.

Drivers are prone to human error too e.g., starting to move the train before the RA is given - often an almost Pavlovian reaction to hearing the clunk of interlock circuit relays closing.

Eep,drivers should wait for RA though,if not given in a few seconds after CD,reopen doors?

 

[RupertW]

I noticed that on the West Coastway it seemed to be driver self-dispatch at every intermediate station (even at larger places like Chichester) Were there dispatch staff at any of these stations before the change to DOO or have there been none since the days of slam doors?

 

[Fred26]

Ooo smart then, I think it’s called a ‘despatch bat’ but disco bat sounds kl

'Disco bat' is a colloquial term. A 'dispatch bat' would refer to any kind of bat, those that don't light up included.

 

[jon0844]

Ooo smart then, I think it’s called a ‘despatch bat’ but disco bat sounds kl

Red, green and white.. but sadly no strobe or animation modes. Would be a pretty poor disco!

LED Dispatch Baton doesn't sound as good though.

 

[APUK002]

Red, green and white.. but sadly no strobe or animation modes. Would be a pretty poor disco!

LED Dispatch Baton doesn't sound as good though.

Yh that’s right.

 

[tsr]

Eep,drivers should wait for RA though,if not given in a few seconds after CD,reopen doors?

Do you have any dispatch competencies? Yes, drivers should wait for an RA indication (as and when provided) but there is no reason why a driver should automatically reopen doors if the RA is not given in a few seconds. For a start, especially at busy stations, it can take more than just several seconds to close the doors of a train anyway. There can also be visibility issues (weather, platform curvature, passenger numbers - to name the most common) which may need the platform staff to move around the platform a little, in order to check the full length of the train during the train safety check after the doors appear closed.

The doors would generally only need to be reopened if a member of platform staff or onboard crew spot an irregularity such as a passenger trapped in the doors, unexpected behaviour by the platform starter signal, etc.

 

[Shunter_69]

Stratford is now CD/RA on platforms 5 and 8, Bat dispatch on 9 and 10 and self dispatch on 10A

As an aside, I always thought the CD and RA where mutually exclusive but had both illuminated at the same time the other day.

 

[APUK002]

Stratford is now CD/RA on platforms 5 and 8, Bat dispatch on 9 and 10 and self dispatch on 10A

As an aside, I always thought the CD and RA where mutually exclusive but had both illuminated at the same time the other day.

Nope,2 different plungers(push buttons) or key slots.

 

[Shunter_69]

Cheers. I guessed they weren’t when it happened. Assume someone got a bit over excited.