Daughter received letter threatening summons

[ainsworth74]

I agree. However I do not know of a single conductor that would go straight for a TIR without asking for the cost of the ticket first.

Yes this is now my concern. I can absolutely see why the daughter would refuse to buy a ticket but if she did I'm not sure there's a defence available as you do have to collect the tickets before departure.

 

[MG11]

I agree. However I do not know of a single conductor that would go straight for a TIR without asking for the cost of the ticket first.

I was under the impression that it was an RPO who dealt with the defendant.

 

[221129]

I was under the impression that it was an RPO who dealt with the defendant.

No. As they don't exist at XC.

 

[221129]

Yes this is now my concern. I can absolutely see why the daughter would refuse to buy a ticket but if she did I'm not sure there's a defence available as you do have to collect the tickets before departure.

Quite. If the Conductor offered to sell a ticket and it was refused then it is case closed as far as I can see.

 

[najaB]

I agree. However I do not know of a single conductor that would go straight for a TIR without asking for the cost of the ticket first.

Well, if we take the OP's report at face value then there's at least one.

 

[221129]

Well, if we take the OP's report at face value then there's at least one.

That is a big IF. To the OP was your daughter offered a chance to pay or given a slip of paper?

 

[Skmanuk]

Was the daughter offered a chance to pay on the train?

No, he went straight to the form and then gave her a "ticket" to get through the barrier at Leicester to access the collection machine

 

[Skmanuk]

So, as 221129 said, if the booking office was closed and advertised as such, there is a clear case of deliberately boarding a train without possessing a valid ticket.

OP was your daughter interviewed under caution?

No. she was asked to fill in a form with name address and telephone number and sign at the bottom

 

[Skmanuk]

I agree. However I do not know of a single conductor that would go straight for a TIR without asking for the cost of the ticket first.

Forgive my ignorance but what is a TIR?

 

[221129]

No, he went straight to the form and then gave her a "ticket" to get through the barrier at Leicester to access the collection machine

Was she given a slip that had details on it to take away?

 

[Skmanuk]

No option was given to purchase a ticket, a form was filled in and no slip of paper given.

 

[MG11]

Forgive my ignorance but what is a TIR?

Ticket Irregularity Report

 

[MichaelAMW]

Maybe all she needs to do is write back and explain what happened, including the important point that the booking office was closed, enclosing her ticket for the whole of her journey from Oakham. It is possible the guard failed to note and report the incident fully.

 

[falcon]

Hi all

I would like a little advice please. My daughter bought a ticket online on the 13th Sept for travel from Oakham to Radlett on the 16th Sept. She received a confirmation email.

When arriving at Oakham the booking office was closed and there is no ticket machine so she was unable to collect her pre paid ticket.

She boarded the train and was asked for a ticket on the first leg to Leicester, she explained the above and showed the guard the confirmation email from train line.com. He took her name and address then left.

She has now received a letter from Transport Investigations Ltd saying that there is sufficient evidence to warrant a prosecution and that she has 21 days to submit any mitigation before they issue a summons.

Does it say what offence is being alleged? Also had payment been made before the journey commneced? I also don't like the term "mitigation" mitigation is offered by a person who is guilty not a person who is under investigation for an alleged offence!

 

[yorkie]

If she was definitely not offered a chance to pay, then providing she is represented by someone suitably qualified and knowledgeable, XC will lose.

XC contract out their prosecutions to an unknowledgeable debt collection agency, who are known for not listening to reason, going for innocent victims and losing cases that have resulted in substantial damages payouts by XC to their victims.

I am happy to provide any assistance required via PM if you like.

 

[najaB]

Also had payment been made before the journey commneced?

The fact that there was a ticket to collect strongly suggests so.

I also don't like the term "mitigation" mitigation is offered by a person who is guilty not a person who is under investigation for an alleged offence!

You're reading too much into it - mitigation can be defined as "the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something." Pointing out that there was no opportunity to purchase reduces the severity to the point that it's no longer illegal.

 

[Puffing Devil]

If she was definitely not offered a chance to pay, then providing she is represented by someone suitably qualified and knowledgeable, XC will lose.

XC contract out their prosecutions to an unknowledgeable debt collection agency, who are known for not listening to reason, going for innocent victims and losing cases that have resulted in substantial damages payouts by XC to their victims.

I am happy to provide any assistance required via PM if you like.

Best route forward - engage with Yorkie via PM and get a robust defence to the charge, given that your daughter did not have the opportunity to buy before she boarded and was not offered the chance to purchase a ticket on board.

 

[najaB]

Before you get the solicitor on speed dial, reply to TIL stating the facts and requesting that they drop the case. They do occasionally see sense.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Before you get the solicitor on speed dial, reply to TIL stating the facts and requesting that they drop the case. They do occasionally see sense.

That is what I hope will happen with a dialogue between Yorkie and the OP. This thread has, yet again, descended into pointless speculation, rehashing old questions and, in some cases, very poor advice.

NB - for the avoidance of doubt, I'm not pointing the finger at you najaB.

 

[ainsworth74]

Before you get the solicitor on speed dial, reply to TIL stating the facts and requesting that they drop the case. They do occasionally see sense.

Yes that'd be my first step. Calmly and succinctly (avoid emotive language stick to cold hard facts) explain what has happened. In particular draw their attention the lack of ticket issuing facilities at Oakham and that, therefore, the opportunity to purchase on board should have been offered.

 

[daodao]

I do not wish to speculate on the individual circumstances of this case, as obviously I don't know exactly what happened, which is critical to establishing whether an offence was committed. However, is proffering something in lieu of a valid ticket in the mistaken belief that this is acceptable, rather than asking to purchase a ticket, considered an attempt to avoid payment? If so, it is understandable that the ticket inspector treated it as a ticket irregularity and acted as he did. It seems unwise to expect to be able to pick up pre-paid tickets at a station immediately before starting one's journey, rather than collecting them in advance of travel.

 

[ffm]

It seems unwise to expect to be able to pick up pre-paid tickets at a station immediately before starting one's journey, rather than collecting them in advance of travel.

Really? It is not unwise at all, it is in the methods of getting your ticket, so what's unwise about accepting the supplier (in this case the railway as a whole) at their word, after all its a contract of sale! I would never consider buying tickets online, for collection at the station, then travelling to said station in advance of my actual travel. In my case that would be a 40 mile round trip and why, oh why, should i have to do so when the supplier has taken my money and given me a choice of collecting then at the station? No way - yes arrive in plenty of tiem to collect and seek help if there is a reason why collection can't / doesn't work - including on train if no one on the station.

 

[falcon]

The fact that there was a ticket to collect strongly suggests so.
You're reading too much into it - mitigation can be defined as "the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something." Pointing out that there was no opportunity to purchase reduces the severity to the point that it's no longer illegal.

Let's not guess.

Also "mitigation" means you ARE gulity and you are trying to lessen the punishment. It has nothing to do with defending an accusation or alleged offence.

"Mitigation" is offered after guilt has been determined.

I think the use of the word "mitigation" shows the lack of knowledge / attitued by / of the company involved.

If payment has been made before travel it looks like the company involved is acting execessively and with really no purpose. What is the loss to the TOC?

 

[MG11]

Let's not guess.

Also "mitigation" means you ARE gulity and you are trying to lessen the punishment. It has nothing to do with defending an accusation or alleged offence.

"Mitigation" is offered after guilt has been determined.

I think the use of the word "mitigation" shows the lack of knowledge / attitued by / of the company involved.

If payment has been made before travel it looks like the company involved is acting execessively and with really no purpose. What is the loss to the TOC?

The company do not need to prove loss if they are pushing for a byelaw prosecution on the basis the defendant boarded a train without possessing a valid ticket.

 

[ainsworth74]

The company do not need to prove loss if they are pushing for a byelaw prosecution on the basis the defendant boarded a train without possessing a valid ticket.

Which would fail as there was no means to buy a ticket at the station.

 

[sheff1]

.. No longer relevant

 

[30907]

I assume the ticket was from Oakham to Kettering. There are no Advance tickets available for that journey - the price if bought on the day (on the train if the booking office is closed) is exactly the same as if purchased online and there are no booking/card fees to pay.

The ticket was to Radlett as the OP states. And in any case it is perfectly in order to purchase walk-up tickets online in advance.

 

[sheff1]

Oops, missed that. Have edited post.

 

[Jonfun]

No. As they don't exist at XC.

RPO=RPI=RSS, it's all Revenue Staff. XC RSSs can interview under caution. Guards can complete TIRs but can't interview under caution.

 

[sauropod99]

How reliable are the published opening times? According to NRE, Warrington Central is open Monday - Friday 06:50 - 14:25, Saturday 07:45 - 15:20, Sunday Closed. However, I have been there in the evening and it's been staffed. In some cases, opening times seem to be shown in station info online but not at the station itself. At Sankey for example, the only way of knowing whether the booking office is open is to push the door. There are no opening times posted and the new ticket machine is fenced off. There are opening times listed on NRE but a lot of people might not look there.