Northern Unit Refurbishments and depot allocations.

[childwallblues]

319376 returned from Wolverton to Allerton in the new livery yesterday. It was back in service on the Liverpool to Preston route today.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

That is far better internally; hopefully that is the sign of things to come. Only minor little thing is that it would look better with wood effect lino flooring but that's only a small cosmetic thing.

 

[Starmill]

FWIW the small number of ex-Thameslink units that have a generously spaced 2+2 Chapman layout from Brighton Express days are very comfortable indeed. My favourite unit on LM, indeed. Pity they only have one!

That layout was very nice, and the ones the one with the new LM cushions is lovely.

 

[Halish Railway]

When's the first 170 due to enter service with Northern? Are they just adding a new livery and maquette?

 

[Starmill]

They were supposed to be arriving in December for crew training. However, it is no longer clear if this will be the case as the electrification is rumored not to be ready for the December change.

 

[superalbs]

They were supposed to be arriving in December for crew training. However, it is no longer clear if this will be the case as the electrification is rumored not to be ready for the December change.

380102 has been fitted with a 'temporary first class' of sorts, so I'd assume that it is.

 

[thealexweb]

They were supposed to be arriving in December for crew training. However, it is no longer clear if this will be the case as the electrification is rumored not to be ready for the December change.

Hasn't this already been completely debunked? The Network Rail / electrification issues is a smoke screen for the real issues which lie with Hitachi. They have only been able to provide around 50% of the EMUs Scotrail needs for its December 2017 timetable change.

 

[Starmill]

380102 has been fitted with a 'temporary first class' of sorts, so I'd assume that it is.

It has!? Wow that must be very naff! Is it under discussion somewhere else?

Hasn't this already been completely debunked? The Network Rail / electrification issues is a smoke screen for the real issues which lie with Hitachi. They have only been able to provide around 50% of the EMUs Scotrail needs for its December 2017 timetable change.

I don't know, maybe? I haven't found the thread. Regardless, there are a number of 380s available so they don't need all 385s.

 

[47802]

It has!? Wow that must be very naff! Is it under discussion somewhere else?



I don't know, maybe? I haven't found the thread. Regardless, there are a number of 380s available so they don't need all 385s.

Could be Southern style First Class

 

[superalbs]

It has!? Wow that must be very naff! Is it under discussion somewhere else?

No discussion yet, I was just shown it by a friend, it was good timing that I saw this post lol. Trying to establish the owner so I can provide a source, but it's basically the same as standard except with leather around the seat edge.


See the above image. It's like that except for where SWT pattern is, it is normal ScotRail, but where the plain red is, it is blue leather.

 

[507021]

Just 150206 in full Northern livery is the only addition to an otherwise excellent listing.

Thanks, I've added that to the list.

 

[Starmill]

From the company Facebook group Halish

Looks good I think

Do you know if 150 142 has had its interior walls removed and replaced with a glass screen, as on 275 (and a number of others which I can't remember). This modification is one of the biggest improvments that can be made, it also has the effect of moving the wheelchair ramp out of the vestibule which helps to reduce dwell time and creates more standing space.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Renatus ones only, which are more of a rebuild of a completely new unit re-using the old bodyshell, bogies and driveline. Now you mention it, though, Chiltern 165s. In both cases, though, that was only so they could have the openings removed to stop them being used to make the aircon not work properly.

Thinking on, they also replaced the inner window frame on the XC Mk2 refurb (but not the WC refurb, which made the latter look cheap) - but only that part, and probably because it was quite corroded in places.

But I do stand corrected on those few only!

Refurbs where window units were replaced? 303s and 4-CEP/BEP units both had sliders replaced with hoppers... so replacement isn't necessarily a good thing!

 

[rich r]

I'm happy to see a 155 waiting for me at a platform on my daily commute (especially if it's 155346). It's a far more comfortable experience than the usual 1420xx or 150 on the Leeds-Selby route. Although there is more knee-room in most of the 142s than anything else Northern operate on that route, so it'll be a shame when they're gone if the refurbs don't address that.

 

[xotGD]

What's everyone's hate towards the 155's about? They're pretty much the same as a 156 but the engine does not vibrate as much.

Also what would we do to the 333's in a perfect world?

Give the 333s proper 2+2 seating - ideally an interior configuration like a 158, but that would be pushing it for a max 45 minute journey.

I would stipulate the same 2+2 layout for the new 331s.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Give the 333s proper 2+2 seating - ideally an interior configuration like a 158, but that would be pushing it for a max 45 minute journey.

I would stipulate the same 2+2 layout for the new 331s.

AFAIAA, the 331s will be 2+2, though the West Yorkshire units may be specced differently due to their different role (and the fact that for the foreseeable future they won't be able to find themselves the wrong side of the hills easily). The problem there though is the possible headlines "New Trains Have Less* Seats!" and so on.

*=Yes, it should be "fewer seats", but such a headline would be unrepresentative of the facts anyway, so do we expect the grammar to have been checked?!

 

[Halish Railway]

AFAIAA, the 331s will be 2+2, though the West Yorkshire units may be specced differently due to their different role (and the fact that for the foreseeable future they won't be able to find themselves the wrong side of the hills easily). The problem there though is the possible headlines "New Trains Have Less* Seats!" and so on.

*=Yes, it should be "fewer seats", but such a headline would be unrepresentative of the facts anyway, so do we expect the grammar to have been checked?!

I doubt that they would have 2+2 seating throughout as the 333's do regularly fill up on most routes in rush hour so I doubt that Northern would want to get rid of seats. 6 Coach 331's should free up 333's on the Airedale to Leeds and probably Wharfedale and Leeds routes.

 

[Starmill]

I find it hard to believe there will be 331s with multipe interior specifications?

 

[Halish Railway]

Probably ironing boards throughout.

 

[Islandexpress]

Sat in a 333 earlier, (Leeds to Forster Sq at rush hour) in one of the 29 seats between vestibule and coach end. 13 seats were taken and yet the vestibule was full with 7 or 8 standees. I’m not actually convinced the 3 + 2 works and is passenger friendly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt that they would have 2+2 seating throughout as the 333's do regularly fill up on most routes in rush hour so I doubt that Northern would want to get rid of seats.

I do. Getting rid of seats (without adding armrests) creates standing and circulation space. The Class 319/700/707 layout really does work well.

 

[Starmill]

No it doesn't. You have to add spacers between the wall and the seat, and between each seat. If you refuse to do that as the 319, 700 and 707 layouts do, you will discover that people sit with their bags, shoulders, legs and feet in the aisle, impeding anyone walking by or wishing to stand there. It's really very easy to do properly, the 458, and 507/508 interior does. People still stand in the aisles and there is sufficient circulation space in these layouts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No it doesn't. You have to add spacers between the wall and the seat, and between each seat. If you refuse to do that as the 319, 700 and 707 layouts do, you will discover that people sit with their bags, shoulders, legs and feet in the aisle, impeding anyone walking by or wishing to stand there. It's really very easy to do properly, the 458, and 507/508 interior does. People still stand in the aisles and there is sufficient circulation space in these layouts.

The 458 and 507/508 interiors don't provide the saloon standing space and circulation space benefits. I'd add 1" spacers between the wall and the seats, but beyond that wider seats don't actually achieve what is intended.

 

[Starmill]

It sounds to me like you have not actually been on a 458. There is loads of standing space and circulation around the doors.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3681/13292888055_e1a8bc31f8_b.jpg

There's slightly less on a 508 but there is plenty on a SW 455 or 456. Again, all of these have spacers between the seats which means you can sit in them even with all seats taken and avoid blocking the aisle for people to get past you. There is no possibility of this on a 700. The spacer does not need to be large, but none at all is actually wasting space.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have. As clear from your linked photo, the circulation space is much narrower than a 700/707/319. In those, you can easily pass someone in the aisle. The difference it makes is significant.

 

[Starmill]

You cannot pass someone in the aisle of a 700 when it's full and standing though, certainly not without tripping over people's legs. And you wouldn't need to when it isn't. So I don't see how that's of benefit.

Alternatively, are you saying that you fit within the confines of a 700 seat in its entirety?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You cannot pass someone in the aisle of a 700 when it's full and standing though, certainly not without tripping over people's legs.

IME yes you can.

Alternatively, are you saying that you fit within the confines of a 700 seat in its entirety?

I don’t, but I’m 6’ 4” and 18.5 stone. Plenty of people do, though. They are no narrower than a typical bus seat.

 

[cactustwirly]

I guess you, like I, are a fan of the IC3000. Large-headrest version even better, I agree.


155: If you're not scrapping the terrible things, 2+2 Fainsa "ironing boards" with armrests per the ScotRail units. The pitch is so tight (and can't necessarily be changed due to underseat equipment boxes) so the thin seats will provide a real benefit.

156: as 155 for the same reasons. I really like the ScotRail refurb design, it should be copied exactly other than the seat fabric design. (I quite like the dark and light blue above, use that).

158: Grammer IC3000 in almost-original layout. To provide DDA compliance a few rows would need to be shifted around a bit, but the original layout as far as possible is by far the best use of space in a Class 158 (it loses[1] no between-seat-back space at all by alternating airline and table seats) and provides excellent window alignment.

I disagree, the chapman seated 156s should keep their seats, the AGA/EMT 156s are very comfortable. I don't see the point in replacing the seats if they don't need replacing.
Actually I'd argue that all the 156s should get chapman's and all the 158s should have grammers.

 

[Starmill]

IME yes you can.

You seriously think that there is room for two people to walk abreast between the seats when all of the seats are taken? Not a chance. It is only just possible when no seats are taken.

 

[Starmill]

Plenty of people do, though.

This is true. Children, and adults who are rather slimmer and shorter than average. So a very small percentage of people using the train. Not something that Northern ought to be looking at copying. Thankfully there is no evidence they are adding this arrangement.