EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Up_Tilt_390]

Outside the Union, do we have the same negotiating position? I don't think we do. Why would we? You'll negotiate to save a marriage. You won't negotiate when the ex has gone.

I question whether the so-called divorce bill is to get enough money to last five to ten years without the monetary contributions the UK makes. If I’m not mistaken they are the second largest after Germany. That’s probably the biggest strength Britain arguably has.

 

[fowler9]

Not everything, but sometimes there are certain laws we are outvoted on and have to participate in. It's kind of what the UK signed up for with the Maastricht Treaty, but the people didn't know they were getting into that, so they're the ones affected by laws they didn't agree to nor have a vote in. It makes you wonder why some people don't see MEP elections as important considering they're the ones who actually do vote on some of the laws that affect them. They don't get to propose legislation as far as I'm concerned, but they get a vote on it, so it's a wonder why nobody cares about the MEPs.

Do you have any examples of any the UK was outvoted on that have impacted negatively on your life? Even the stuff on immigration we freely threw ourselves in to when other countries held back, we being the people we will carry on voting for after we leave the evil EU who impose laws upon us.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Do you have any examples of any the UK was outvoted on that have impacted negatively on your life? Even the stuff on immigration we freely threw ourselves in to when other countries held back, we being the people we will carry on voting for after we leave the evil EU who impose laws upon us.

I wasn't referring to myself specifically, I was more speaking in regards to people who often do face the impacts of laws. For example, many fisherman are not happy with the EU common fisheries policy because of it's effect on the fishing industry. In regards to your second point, that's why I wonder why some people don't see the European Parliament elections as important, because they are the people who we elected to vote on the laws that are put forward in the European Parliament. The turnout in the 2014 European Parliament election in the UK was just 35.6%.

 

[EM2]

For example, many fisherman are not happy with the EU common fisheries policy because of it's effect on the fishing industry.

And yet Grimsby now wants to keep free trade with the EU:

Grimsby, a seaside town in eastern England, voted overwhelmingly to quit the European Union.

More than two-thirds of people from the area backed leaving Brussels, making it one of the most Eurosceptic regions in Britain.

But now food chiefs from the town, a key player in the UK fishing industry, have been lobbying the government to keep its free trade status with Europe.

Simon Dwyer, from Seafood Grimsby & Humber, told MPs there should be a special exemption for the region’s seafood industry, reported the Grimsby Telegraph.

Producers in the town import around 90 percent of the fish they process, making it vulnerable to the introduction of import tariffs, added the newspaper.

 

[fowler9]

I wasn't referring to myself specifically, I was more speaking in regards to people who often do face the impacts of laws. For example, many fisherman are not happy with the EU common fisheries policy because of it's effect on the fishing industry. In regards to your second point, that's why I wonder why some people don't see the European Parliament elections as important, because they are the people who we elected to vote on the laws that are put forward in the European Parliament. The turnout in the 2014 European Parliament election in the UK was just 35.6%.

I take it you haven't heard about the Grimsby fishermen trying to be exempt from Brexit then? Despite 70% of the population voting out the good people of Grimsby still want access to the single market when it comes to where they all work. Google it. Talk about people not thinking it through.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

And yet Grimsby now wants to keep free trade with the EU:

I take it you haven't heard about the Grimsby fishermen trying to be exempt from Brexit then? Despite 70% of the population voting out the good people of Grimsby still want access to the single market when it comes to where they all work. Google it. Talk about people not thinking it through.

Pity for Grimsby then that it can't have it both ways. Contrary to what the Liberal Democrats make out, it's not our decision to leave the single market and lose free trade, it's the EU who've made it clear, and I'm sure they've stated that the four freedoms must be kept in order to keep free trade. I'm not sure many people knew this, and because of a considerable amount of negativity from the campaigns they might not have been very inclined to listen to the arguments even if they held merit. I wonder what David Cameron is thinking right now...

 

[fowler9]

Pity for Grimsby then that it can't have it both ways. Contrary to what the Liberal Democrats make out, it's not our decision to leave the single market and lose free trade, it's the EU who've made it clear, and I'm sure they've stated that the four freedoms must be kept in order to keep free trade. I'm not sure many people knew this, and because of a considerable amount of negativity from the campaigns they might not have been very inclined to listen to the arguments even if they held merit. I wonder what David Cameron is thinking right now...

Well that is exactly it, a lot of people who voted leave didn't have a clue what they were voting for.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Well that is exactly it, a lot of people who voted leave didn't have a clue what they were voting for.

It's a pity as well because I can understand some of the concerns of leave voters. The fact is though, the process of leaving the European Union is very complicated and will bring a lot of changes. To add to this, not everyone who voted leave wanted a hard Brexit themselves. Even Nigel Farage was advocating for a Norway deal, though that's also a testament of his ignorance. How can he complain about unelected bureaucrats making laws yet want a deal that will result in the same thing but without any MEPs to vote on them? Although a Norway deal will allow fisheries to be exempt, the primary concerns of sovereignty and immigration will not be sorted out, and we would still be paying into the budget, so everything would practically have been for nothing. Dare I admit it, but I was voting in the hopes of getting a Swiss deal, but really I think I was just so under pressure to come up with a decision that I didn't think through it very well and didn't like the EU very much. If I had a chance again though, I think I might just spoil the ballot.

 

[EM2]

...it's not our decision to leave the single market and lose free trade...

It's exactly our decision. Enacting Article 50 and leaving the EU does not mean we'd have to leave the single market. There are countries outside the EU that are within the EEA (aka the single market), yet the UK has decided that is not the arrangement that it wants.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

It's exactly our decision. Enacting Article 50 and leaving the EU does not mean we'd have to leave the single market. There are countries outside the EU that are within the EEA (aka the single market), yet the UK has decided that is not the arrangement that it wants.

Donald Tusk made it clear that the only alternative to hard Brexit is no Brexit. Even if we wanted to leave the single market it isn't our choice. The countries in the EEA and EFTA signed up under different arrangements, and the EEA and EFTA were set up as a precursor to joining the EU, not as an alternative to it when leaving.

 

[fowler9]

It's a pity as well because I can understand some of the concerns of leave voters. The fact is though, the process of leaving the European Union is very complicated and will bring a lot of changes. To add to this, not everyone who voted leave wanted a hard Brexit themselves. Even Nigel Farage was advocating for a Norway deal, though that's also a testament of his ignorance. How can he complain about unelected bureaucrats making laws yet want a deal that will result in the same thing but without any MEPs to vote on them? Although a Norway deal will allow fisheries to be exempt, the primary concerns of sovereignty and immigration will not be sorted out, and we would still be paying into the budget, so everything would practically have been for nothing. Dare I admit it, but I was voting in the hopes of getting a Swiss deal, but really I think I was just so under pressure to come up with a decision that I didn't think through it very well and didn't like the EU very much. If I had a chance again though, I think I might just spoil the ballot.

Can we ignore Nigel Farage, he has made a fortune off the EU. We never lost Sovereignty and actively chose not to use certain laws that would have kicked EU citizens out if they didn't get a job within a certain amount of time.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Can we ignore Nigel Farage, he has made a fortune off the EU. We never lost Sovereignty and actively chose not to use certain laws that would have kicked EU citizens out if they didn't get a job within a certain amount of time.

You can ignore Farage all you want, he's just another big city elitist pretending to be the common man's hero.

 

[EM2]

Donald Tusk made it clear that the only alternative to hard Brexit is no Brexit.

He may have said that in the past, however that is not his most recent pronouncement

“There is no deadlock, I feel much better, much safer after my meeting with Theresa May. Everything is possible,” he said. “When it comes to this political atmosphere, and very visible goodwill – I am talking about both sides – this all means that we still have a chance to achieve our first goal,” he said at a European summit in Gothenburg.

The first goal is the end of talks about the fulfilment of the UK’s existing commitments towards the other 27 members of the EU. Once that has been decided, the discussions can move towards the future relationship between the two parties and particularly the terms of trade between the two.

Tusk emphasised that he is not tasked with leading negotiations on the EU side (my emphasis) – a job given to former French foreign minister Michel Barnier – but he is nevertheless an influencial [sic] figure, responsible for liaison with the EU27 leaders.

 

[fowler9]

Donald Tusk made it clear that the only alternative to hard Brexit is no Brexit.

You know what started that off, Boris Bl**dy Johnson the Foreign Secretary, a year ago. It isn't true that this is the case. If that was the case then what are we negotiating over?

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

He may have said that in the past, however that is not his most recent pronouncement

Looks like I was mistaken.

 

[fowler9]

You can ignore Farage all you want, he's just another big city elitist pretending to be the common man's hero.

Thats exactly what I am saying.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Thats exactly what I am saying.

Glad we share some common ground then

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Despite what the increasingly neurotic hard-right insist, nothing was officially confirmed by the referendum, people were simply asked if they thought the UK should be a member of the EU or not and I think a lot of the EU's attitude has come from our government's unexpected insistence on a hard deadline, hard Brexit. It is hard for them to want to be overly flexible to a country that wants to sever all ties with them.

A government with a good approach would have taken the advisory referendum result as it was, an advisory result, and spent the next year evaluating the possible options - to stay a member, to flex the rights to exempt ourselves from certain regulations that we always had, to engage in a long term negotiated departure, to make a hard exit etc. They could have explored solutions to the Ireland issue etc. and come up with detailed costings and predictions for each option, then made a follow-up referendum or Parliamentary vote in which people were presented with a choice on exactly how they wanted things to progress.

Then there would be none of the ambiguity or disagreement there is now.

 

[fowler9]

Glad we share some common ground then

Mate I am sure we share plenty of common ground. It is good to be able to debate things though, express your own opinion etc. People don't have to agree on everything, they can still get on though. Makes life more fun.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Mate I am sure we share plenty of common ground. It is good to be able to debate things though, express your own opinion etc. People don't have to agree on everything, they can still get on though. Makes life more fun.

For a cynical pessimist like myself who doesn't often get the chance to have civilised debates and usually has to suppress them, doing this kind of thing is exactly what a guy like me needs. Though if your location listed on the forums is correct, we can both agree on one thing with no debate at all... Don't Buy The Sun!

 

[fowler9]

For a cynical pessimist like myself who doesn't often get the chance to have civilised debates and usually has to suppress them, doing this kind of thing is exactly what a guy like me needs. Though if your location listed on the forums is correct, we can both agree on one thing with no debate at all... Don't Buy The Sun!

Ha ha, nice one. Totally agree with you.

 

[Senex]

A government with a good approach would have taken the advisory referendum result as it was, an advisory result, and spent the next year evaluating the possible options - to stay a member, to flex the rights to exempt ourselves from certain regulations that we always had, to engage in a long term negotiated departure, to make a hard exit etc. They could have explored solutions to the Ireland issue etc. and come up with detailed costings and predictions for each option, then made a follow-up referendum or Parliamentary vote in which people were presented with a choice on exactly how they wanted things to progress.

That implies a sensible, rational, and grown-up political system, which is pecisely what Britain does not have. What evidence of any intllectual flexibility have we seen from the Tory Brexiteer hardliners (and the rather smaller number with similar views from Labour) and what evidence have we seen that May might ever contemplate taking her blinkers off and deviating even slightly from the extremist path she wants to follow to placate her Brexiteers?

 

[najaB]

Have you asked all the leave voters why they voted as they did, then?

I haven't. But I've also not heard it raised by more than one in ten people when discussing why they voted (or planned to vote) leave.

 

[najaB]

For example, many fisherman are not happy with the EU common fisheries policy because of it's effect on the fishing industry.

Those pesky Europeans, the nerve of them trying to stop the fish stocks being eradicated.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Those pesky Europeans, the nerve of them trying to stop the fish stocks being eradicated.

That actually kind of made me chuckle a little bit...

 

[Bromley boy]

Is it? The Irish and Dutch both negotiated changes as a result of their referenda. Other countries ratified the treaty through their parliaments, like any other treaty.

As for the "creation of a superstate", a) I don't think they are and b) a reduction in nationalism is a good aim anyway after the destruction of two world wars.

No country can survive alone. Sadly we're about to prove it.

Oh come off it - negotiated changes as a result of referenda? We all know that means asking the same question again and again and tweaking it until the right answer was delivered. No respect for democracy at all which is typical of the EU.

A reduction in nationalism a good thing? This is where you and I fundamentally disagree - you may want to be part of an undemocratic, self serving bureaucratic superstate set up to favour France and Germany but I value the national identity of living in a country that has been formed over millennia.

This statement actually encapsulates the fundamental issue I have with many remain voters I have spoken to - they’re so bitter about the result of the referendum that they no longer even like the country they live in and seem to actively relish the UK’s downfall!

And EU is on a trajectory towards ever increasing federalism - with respect your statement “I don’t think they are” is naive at best, wilfully disingenuous at worst, given everything coming out of the EU points towards ever closer union. The Lisbon Treaty being an excellent example of this.

Ironically I think you’ll also find that the resentment caused by the EU’s failed economic policies, currently wrecking the economies of Southern Europe, is fostering a big increase in far right nationalism.

As for no country can survive alone,
I would agree with you, but leaving the EU isn’t a case of being alone, it’s a case of trading around the world, including with Europe, but retaining national sovereignty by doing so - hardly an alien concept to every country that isn’t part of the EU!

 

[Bromley boy]

Well that is exactly it, a lot of people who voted leave didn't have a clue what they were voting for.

True but then most remainers also didn’t have a clue what they were voting for - most don’t know the first thing about the EU and in particular don’t realise quite how much control this sprawling bureaucracy, which originated as a trading block, now has over our daily lives.

 

[Moonshot]

True but then most remainers also didn’t have a clue what they were voting for - most don’t know the first thing about the EU and in particular don’t realise quite how much control this sprawling bureaucracy, which originated as a trading block, now has over our daily lives.

Indeed and as one who voted Remain myself, I have to say that the original idea of just an EEC ( ie single common market ) has actually mushroomed into something which goes against the grain of the independent thinking UK. But in leaving it , in my opinion , has just opened the door for a whole host of other issues to come flooding in .....including how to staff an NHS which has been reliant on overseas staff for many years now.

 

[EM2]

Oh come off it - negotiated changes as a result of referenda? We all know that means asking the same question again and again and tweaking it until the right answer was delivered. No respect for democracy at all which is typical of the EU.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-eighth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_Bill_2008_(Ireland)

In the meeting of the European Council (the meeting of the heads of government of all twenty-seven European Union member states) in Brussels on 11–12 December 2008, Taoiseach Brian Cowen presented the concerns of the Irish people relating to taxation policy, family, social and ethical issues, and Ireland's policy of neutrality. Effectively Ireland's position was renegotiated, and the revised package was approved by the electorate in 2009. Because of the Irish financial crisis it was also apparent that Ireland would need increased financial support from the European Union.

The European Council agreed that:

• the necessary legal guarantees would be given that nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon made any change of any kind to the Union's competences on taxation for any member state;
• the necessary legal guarantees would be given that the Treaty of Lisbon did not prejudice the security and defence policy of any member state, including Ireland's traditional policy of neutrality.
• the necessary legal guarantees would be given that neither the Treaty of Lisbon (including the Justice and Home Affairs provisions), nor the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, affected the provisions of the Irish Constitution in relation to the right to life, education and the family in any way;
• in accordance with the necessary legal procedures, a Decision would be taken to retain Ireland's Commissioner, provided that the Treaty of Lisbon was ratified;
• the high importance attached to issues including workers' rights would be confirmed.

The Irish Government then committed to seeking ratification of the Treaty of Lisbon by the end of the term of the current European Commission (October 2009), provided that the above were implemented satisfactorily.

 

[najaB]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-eighth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_Bill_2008_(Ireland)

Don't bother with facts, they just get in the way of opinions.