GWR Turbo cascade progress to Bristol region services

[Adsy125]

There is a some doubt about that happening, it has been mentioned in the last few pages of this thread.

Yes I'd seen that thank you, hence my comment about it!

Please see post #201 (page 7) for the position on Portsmouth-Cardiff turbos.

Thanks you Clarence Yard, I hadn't seen that post, it was helpful. Would a 150+158 combination be able to keep up with the timings on Pompey-Cardiff?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Yes they can although it would be much better if all the stock on the route was 90mph.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes I'd seen that thank you, hence my comment about it!

Thanks you Clarence Yard, I hadn't seen that post, it was helpful. Would a 150+158 combination be able to keep up with the timings on Pompey-Cardiff?

Yes they can but that won’t be happening anymore after the Turbos are introduced anyway, so...

 

[pompeyfan]

Yes they can but that won’t be happening anymore after the Turbos are introduced anyway, so...

Incorrect, if you read the post quoted just above your post on page 7, it says the plan is 3 car, -> 5 car (using 150/158) -> 5 car turbo operation. Isn’t there quite a bit of 75mph running on the route though? And time keeping isn’t great as it is due to various incidents.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Incorrect, if you read the post quoted just above your post on page 7, it says the plan is 3 car, -> 5 car (using 150/158) -> 5 car turbo operation. Isn’t there quite a bit of 75mph running on the route though? And time keeping isn’t great as it is due to various incidents.

150s and 158s aren’t counted as Turbos

 

[pompeyfan]

I wasn’t trying to suggest they are.

Currently the service is 3 car 158s

Next year they’ll become 5 car 150/158 combos

When the refurbishment is winding down they’ll be 5 car 165/166s

 

[jimm]

802s to Worcester, interesting. I thought we would just get 800s. Well it's better than Turbos but at some point we will get those things coming up from Bristol.

And what exactly is wrong with Turbos on Bristol-Worcestershire services? 90mph stock with at least two coaches on all services, instead of a mish-mash of 90mph 158s and 75mph 150s of various lengths, or a lone 153 replacing a failure.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

And what exactly is wrong with Turbos on Bristol-Worcestershire services? 90mph stock with at least two coaches on all services, instead of a mish-mash of 90mph 158s and 75mph 150s of various lengths, or a lone 153 replacing a failure.

Nothing, for the reasons you state.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

To correct a mistake on this thread; class 150 units at 75mph are not able to keep time on the Portsmouth route, particularly between Romney-Salisbury where they drop about 1.5 to 2 mins which has a direct knock on effect onto the Waterloo-Exeter service which is timetabled to arrive into Salisbury 3 mins behind the northbound service.

Therefore from January the Portsmouth line will continue with the existing 3-car 158 service, but with some 150 strengthening in the peaks north of Westbury.

 

[pompeyfan]

To correct a mistake on this thread; class 150 units at 75mph are not able to keep time on the Portsmouth route, particularly between Romney-Salisbury where they drop about 1.5 to 2 mins which has a direct knock on effect onto the Waterloo-Exeter service which is timetabled to arrive into Salisbury 3 mins behind the northbound service.

Therefore from January the Portsmouth line will continue with the existing 3-car 158 service, but with some 150 strengthening in the peaks north of Westbury.

The amount of 150s that they’re sending down to Portsmouth at the moment, that doesn’t seem to concern them! Are any of the 158s out of traffic at the moment? Unit availability seems to be shocking just recently.

 

[PHILIPE]

The amount of 150s that they’re sending down to Portsmouth at the moment, that doesn’t seem to concern them! Are any of the 158s out of traffic at the moment? Unit availability seems to be shocking just recently.

158961 due out of Barton Hill yesterday and 158951 going in. There are many instances of 158/9s working 150 diagrams but in the present climate, living hand to mouth with availability, what is available at the time has to go out. There have also got to be units in the right place overnight which is not helped by breakdown of diagrams.

 

[pompeyfan]

158961 due out of Barton Hill yesterday and 158951 going in. There are many instances of 158/9s working 150 diagrams but in the present climate, living hand to mouth with availability, what is available at the time has to go out. There have also got to be units in the right place overnight which is not helped by breakdown of diagrams.

Thanks for the update, off topic but does anyone know what the plan is for 158798?

 

[PHILIPE]

158961 due out of Barton Hill yesterday and 158951 going in. There are many instances of 158/9s working 150 diagrams but in the present climate, living hand to mouth with availability, what is available at the time has to go out. There have also got to be units in the right place overnight which is not helped by breakdown of diagrams.

My mistake, 158952 going in not 951

 

[D1009]

To correct a mistake on this thread; class 150 units at 75mph are not able to keep time on the Portsmouth route, particularly between Romney-Salisbury where they drop about 1.5 to 2 mins which has a direct knock on effect onto the Waterloo-Exeter service which is timetabled to arrive into Salisbury 3 mins behind the northbound service.

Therefore from January the Portsmouth line will continue with the existing 3-car 158 service, but with some 150 strengthening in the peaks north of Westbury.

Yes, the 150s should accelerate better when strengthening something else rather than on their own as there is more power to overcome the wind resistance on the flat front, but the time loss pales into insignificance compared to some of the other problems on the route.

 

[Parallel]

I saw a 166 at Newport heading to Taunton today. Looked very strange seeing one there!

Then a few minutes later on another platform, rattley 150925 rolled in completely rammed having come from Portsmouth. The sooner these units are off the route, the better (though obviously better than no train at all)

 

[Nammer]

150925 was on 1923 PMH - CDF this evening and in back in 3car formation, a previous post mentioned the middle car had been removed.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Yes, the 150s should accelerate better when strengthening something else rather than on their own as there is more power to overcome the wind resistance on the flat front, but the time loss pales into insignificance compared to some of the other problems on the route.

It is a good point, and what is no doubt frustrating to the timetable planners is that the plan is constrained by a 1-2 minute issue on paper, when in practice many services suffer 10-20 minute delays or more regardless of the traction type. Unfortunately the rather more 'tolerant' days of 'don't worry it'll work on the day' are no longer with us, and the plan must be 100% compliant otherwise NR will not accept it. Sadly the industry sees a 3-car 90mph unit which can keep time but suffer overcrowding as entirely preferable to a 5-car 75mph unit which can't quite keep time but provides seats for all. Such are the times we live in, and I'm sure there are many ex-railwaymen in the sky looking down at us all and laughing their backsides off.

It's all about liability you see.

 

[Dai Corner]

It is a good point, and what is no doubt frustrating to the timetable planners is that the plan is constrained by a 1-2 minute issue on paper, when in practice many services suffer 10-20 minute delays or more regardless of the traction type. Unfortunately the rather more 'tolerant' days of 'don't worry it'll work on the day' are no longer with us, and the plan must be 100% compliant otherwise NR will not accept it. Sadly the industry sees a 3-car 90mph unit which can keep time but suffer overcrowding as entirely preferable to a 5-car 75mph unit which can't quite keep time but provides seats for all. Such are the times we live in, and I'm sure there are many ex-railwaymen in the sky looking down at us all and laughing their backsides off.

It's all about liability you see.

I wonder if anyone has actually determined sectional running times (if that's the right jargon) for a 158/150 combo as opposed to the two classes running separately?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I believe Wessex Trains had combined sectional times for such hybrid rakes but the differences are so small it is a wasted effort. Timetables are planned to the nearest 30-sec so the slight difference in the acceleration curve compared to the normal 150 timing load would yield little/no benefit.

There is also another issue specific to the Severn-Solent route; the original 158s to operate on the route were the souped up 400hp/car Cardiff Canton units compared to the standard 350hp/car ex-Transpennine sets in use today, which have to be driven flat out to keep time (and regularly don't.) Therefore the impact of 75mph rolling stock being deployed on the day is that much worse again.

 

[Parallel]

Do GWR have any 400hp units left? I guess these would be the units with the original seats and the automated Wessex safety announcements? These units would never work alone as every unit works with an extra coach, apart from a couple that are all Richmond seating, and 158798. That said I’m not sure if 158766 and 158763 are ex-Wessex

 

[D6975]

Do GWR have any 400hp units left?

No they don't. 400hp units are with Wales and Borders, EMT and Northern.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

No they don't. 400hp units are with Wales and Borders, EMT and Northern.

I don't think Arriva Trains Wales (assuming that's who you mean by W&B) have anything other than 350hp Perkins engined sets which are effectively Turbos from an engine / drivetrain point of view. There were only about 20 (?) 400hp Cummins 'Hill-Climber' 158s, although of course there would have been far more if the bulk of the batch hadn't been nicked by NSE to become the 159 fleet. Northern and EMT definitely got some; did any go to Scotland perchance?

 

[PHILIPE]

Looks as though 2119 Bristol TM to Cardiff tonight is a Turbo. Change of headcode to 9U32 is the clue.

 

[ATW158Xpress]

Seems they been placing a Turbo on the 21:19 Bristol TM to Cardiff quite a few times during a weekday. Is this for gauge clearance runs or stort notice change?

 

[Dai Corner]

Seems they been placing a Turbo on the 21:19 Bristol TM to Cardiff quite a few times during a weekday. Is this for gauge clearance runs or stort notice change?

I understand 16xs are cleared to Cariff Central, apart from Newport Platform 1. They run as a Class 9 to remind signallers not to send them there. Possibly the 2119 is a Turbo if the crew sign them or are under training to do so and a 15x otherwise?

 

[43096]

I don't think Arriva Trains Wales (assuming that's who you mean by W&B) have anything other than 350hp Perkins engined sets which are effectively Turbos from an engine / drivetrain point of view. There were only about 20 (?) 400hp Cummins 'Hill-Climber' 158s, although of course there would have been far more if the bulk of the batch hadn't been nicked by NSE to become the 159 fleet. Northern and EMT definitely got some; did any go to Scotland perchance?

400hp sets are 158863-872 (and 159001-022). 863-866 are with EMT, 867-871 with ScotRail and 872 Northern. The ScotRail sets transfer to Northern as part of the franchise plans.

 

[Class 170101]

At the moment the Basingstokes is the only LTV route we are authorised to use the Ride Height Modded (RHM) units on. (RHM units are also cleared for Reading - Shalford but we haven’t had the nod to start allocating on that route yet). As it stands at the moment we don’t have too much worry as out of the RHM sets, only 166204 is at Reading so that will be utilised in the Basingstokes.

Would be able to explain what the RHM is, whats its purpose is and why its only permitted on certain routes please?

 

[BestWestern]

Would be able to explain what the RHM is, whats its purpose is and why its only permitted on certain routes please?

'Ride Height Modification'. Undertaken to overcome the running boards potentially striking platform edges due to the Turbo fleet being out of gauge away from their original routes. Essentially the unit has 'spacers' between body and bogies so it sits higher up. Modded sets cannot work with non-modded, and route clearance is required before they can operate over a line.

 

[PHILIPE]

I understand 16xs are cleared to Cariff Central, apart from Newport Platform 1. They run as a Class 9 to remind signallers not to send them there. Possibly the 2119 is a Turbo if the crew sign them or are under training to do so and a 15x otherwise?

I think it is best utilisation of resources especially when there is a shortage of units.

 

[ATW158Xpress]

I understand 16xs are cleared to Cariff Central, apart from Newport Platform 1. They run as a Class 9 to remind signallers not to send them there. Possibly the 2119 is a Turbo if the crew sign them or are under training to do so and a 15x otherwise?

I know every other Taunton to Cardifff Central is booked to use Platform 1 towards Cardiff on weekdays. This may cause problems when Turbos start using the route more regularly from the New Year for timetables and Platform allocations in Newport as a train from Holyhead comes in at the same time.