Offensive Graffiti on Southern

[class387]

https://twitter.com/keep_the_guard/status/928361229055295488 (Shows a Southern 377 with swearing tagged onto it.

Why was this train allowed to run in service?

 

[ooo]

https://twitter.com/keep_the_guard/status/928361229055295488 (Shows a Southern 377 with swearing tagged onto it.

Why was this train allowed to run in service?

I imagine there was no other train they could replace it with.

 

[class387]

I imagine there was no other train they could replace it with.

I'm all for trains running with mild graffiti, but isn't this a bit too extreme? Not very nice for the driver that has to drive it either.

 

[Lrd]

https://twitter.com/keep_the_guard/status/928361229055295488 (Shows a Southern 377 with swearing tagged onto it.

Why was this train allowed to run in service?

It probably hasn't been reported by someone who has seen it (e.g. the person who took the photo). The driver could have picked up the train from the other side/saloon.

 

[Sunset route]

There was an 8 car 377 ecs move around midday down the BML towards Brighton that was heavily graffitied, it could be the unit involved and I guess it was going to get cleaned off?

 

[route:oxford]

I'm all for trains running with mild graffiti, but isn't this a bit too extreme? Not very nice for the driver that has to drive it either.

Sometimes it's good to let people see what has to be tidied up afterwards. Perhaps, in this case, highlighting the abuses tolerated or promoted by the Unions.

 

[RichardKing]

I'm sure this photo has been circulating for a good few months now. I don't think this is a recent graffiti case.

 

[Sirgerbil]

It's an old photo, not done in retaliation for the current news regarding the pay deal.

Social media stirring at its best.

 

[mallard]

As offensive as this is (although I've certainly seen worse), you've got to be pretty thin-skinned to cancel a train (and potentially make hundreds of commuters late for work; there's usually plenty of spare stock outside the peaks) for the sake of a bit of graffiti.

 

[class387]

It's an old photo, not done in retaliation for the current news regarding the pay deal.

Social media stirring at its best.

Right. That's just as annoying as the graffiti itself, especially given how it was probably done by one of its sympathisers.

 

[StemmePilot]

From Thameslink a while back (WARNING contains profanity), I boarded and alighted on the other side so didn't see the full effect. Tweet to customer service and they said it would be taken out of
service at Bedford (probably happening anyway).

 

[OxtedSignaller]

The unit was probably berthed there overnight. It should of gone ECS to the depot I imagine.

 

[Antman]

https://twitter.com/keep_the_guard/status/928361229055295488 (Shows a Southern 377 with swearing tagged onto it.

Why was this train allowed to run in service?

Ideally it should have been removed before the train entered service but without knowing the full circumstances it's difficult to pass judgment.

 

[Bald Rick]

As offensive as this is (although I've certainly seen worse), you've got to be pretty thin-skinned to cancel a train (and potentially make hundreds of commuters late for work; there's usually plenty of spare stock outside the peaks) for the sake of a bit of graffiti.

Many TOCs have a policy that trains do not enter service with offensive or significant graffiti. It has been proved that this helps prevent copycat attacks. That does require someone to see and report it.

I know of several occasions where heavily graffitied trains have been taken out of service mid diagram. Indeed I called one in myself a few weeks ago.

 

[CarlSilva]

As offensive as this is (although I've certainly seen worse), you've got to be pretty thin-skinned to cancel a train (and potentially make hundreds of commuters late for work; there's usually plenty of spare stock outside the peaks) for the sake of a bit of graffiti.

Yeah true.
Hasn't anyone got a bottle of celly thinners and a rag. It would be a 2 minute job to wipe that off.

 

[hooverboy]

Many TOCs have a policy that trains do not enter service with offensive or significant graffiti. It has been proved that this helps prevent copycat attacks. That does require someone to see and report it.

I know of several occasions where heavily graffitied trains have been taken out of service mid diagram. Indeed I called one in myself a few weeks ago.

why don't maintainance depots and train crew carry paintball guns,and add their own "artwork" to those doiing the graffiti?
they will soon get the message, it's like training cats not to crap in your back garden

perfectly legit.just needs an additional warning on the trespass is forbidden posters..in legalistic terms.Network rail reserve the right to IDENTIFY and prosecute patrons unauthorised to access this property.

in this day and age of counter-terrorism etc this could also have other uses.maybe the guy did succeed in his diabolical plan,but he was spotted and now covered in luminescent/smart water so lights up like a christmas tree,so can be brought to book.

do agree that travelling on most "pimped" trains is generally unsightly,but you need to tackle the problem at the root,not treat the symptoms.

 

[Bald Rick]

That's called taking the law into your own hands, and is apparently frowned upon by the BTP.

However, BTP have caught some prolific 'artistes' and some have had a decent stretch at Her Majesty's pleasure.

 

[hooverboy]

why don't maintainance depots and train crew carry paintball guns,and add

That's called taking the law into your own hands, and is apparently frowned upon by the BTP.

However, BTP have caught some prolific 'artistes' and some have had a decent stretch at Her Majesty's pleasure.

in what way?.
1)you have the disclaimer on the premesis saying unauthorised personnel shall be identified.
2)it is on network rail owned property,not a public highway(public thoroughfare rules are different)
3) it is a non-lethal projectile,designed to visibly mark, not maim or incapacitate.

if you go to a paintball place,yes they have a disclaimer form or two to fill in saying you fully accept responsibility for injuries sustained if you don't follow the rules...the point being that if you trespass on the rail in the first place you're already solely liable for any physical injury,be that hit by oncoming vehicle,electrocution or whatever.

 

[infobleep]

As offensive as this is (although I've certainly seen worse), you've got to be pretty thin-skinned to cancel a train (and potentially make hundreds of commuters late for work; there's usually plenty of spare stock outside the peaks) for the sake of a bit of graffiti.

South West Trains must have been very thick skinned then as they cancelled trains due to graffiti but it seemed they only cancelled them if the graffiti was on the outside.

Personally I'd have run the trains but perhaps I'm not thick skinned.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Many TOCs have a policy that trains do not enter service with offensive or significant graffiti. It has been proved that this helps prevent copycat attacks. That does require someone to see and report it.

I know of several occasions where heavily graffitied trains have been taken out of service mid diagram. Indeed I called one in myself a few weeks ago.

I was doing that as far back as 1996 - zero tolerance - and if the unit had to run (say to protect a peak service) - then a quick slash of white paint over the tagging was done - thus stopping the vandals getting the kudos of photographing their work in service. It worked too. That and not outberthing over Xmas and NY holidays - everything was berthed in safe locations with security - no incidents at all , whereas that Xmas I think SWT had several dozen vehicles damaged quite badly.

Once caught a kid tagging the interior of a Bakerloo line train - he did not expect a citizen's arrest and a quick walk to Queens Park Met nick for collection by the BTP.

 

[zuriblue]

I wonder if anyone else having seen that has thought “and the guard thinks drivers the same”?

Having seen SBB stock with the entire lower deck of one coach completely tagged or Italian stock tagged from cab to cab, apart from the language, that seems a bit mild.

 

[rebmcr]

the point being that if you trespass on the rail in the first place you're already solely liable for any physical injury

This is not correct. Duty of Care extends even to trespassers.

 

[AlterEgo]

As offensive as this is (although I've certainly seen worse), you've got to be pretty thin-skinned to cancel a train (and potentially make hundreds of commuters late for work; there's usually plenty of spare stock outside the peaks) for the sake of a bit of graffiti.

It’s not about being offended, it’s aboht ensuring that any graffiti isn’t visible. The idea is that the existence of graffiti promotes more graffiti (and worse) in the environment. There was a study in an American city about it once which I can’t be bothered to look up.

 

[greyman42]

That's called taking the law into your own hands, and is apparently frowned upon by the BTP.

However, BTP have caught some prolific 'artistes' and some have had a decent stretch at Her Majesty's pleasure.

Out of interest, what kind of sentences/fines do these people get?

 

[furnessvale]

Out of interest, what kind of sentences/fines do these people get?

When I was involved in such matters, the best results obtained were 18 months inside for quite serious offences (damage in the £100,000+ bracket).
Mind you, that was 20+ years ago and sentencing has got more lenient as prisons fill up.

 

[robbeech]

So, they aren't allowed to spray over such offensive language and drawings of the stereotypical phallus with some white or black pain temporarily whilst in service. It would take half an average dwell time and would minimise offence. I understand it wouldn't always be possible, but i could have that off in a couple of minutes, or covered over in 15 seconds.

 

[hooverboy]

This is not correct. Duty of Care extends even to trespassers.

what do you mean by duty of care?
if someone is on the line because:
1)they are stoned out of their brains on some illicit substance and don't know where they are
2)they have a penchent for "artwork"/criminal damage
3)they have a penchent for pyrotechnics like parsons green

I think duty of care probably only extends to scenario 1 here,and that's only to get them apprehended and taken to a place of safety/medical asessment.

case study 2 is going to cost thousands,both in legal fees and remedial work,not to mention RISK of killing/hurting themselves.sentence should be commensurate with the "value" of the crime...ie £100k damage,+legal fees paid for by community work at average wage(lets say £28k per year)
£100k damage+legal cost looks like about 6 years community service to me.

case study 3 is going to cost lives if not dealt with swiftly and robustly....no duty of care required here,just duty of stopping it if and where possibe.

would you rather use the softly softly approach to begin with,and find out that you could have stopped it but didn't.....or the zero tolerance approach and find out it was a bit of an over-reaction?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

So, they aren't allowed to spray over such offensive language and drawings of the stereotypical phallus with some white or black pain temporarily whilst in service. It would take half an average dwell time and would minimise offence. I understand it wouldn't always be possible, but i could have that off in a couple of minutes, or covered over in 15 seconds.

Read what I said before - we used to ruin their vandalism and get the units OOS PDQ - only way to defeat them. That and the court system.

 

[robbeech]

Yes i did read that bit which is what prompted me to ask why it wasn't done more frequently.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yes i did read that bit which is what prompted me to ask why it wasn't done more frequently.

Purely because I took a deep interest in keeping my trains clean and tidy + I hate vandalism ! - we pulled up the overall ambience of the North London Lines by such measures and the Station Managers did likewise on their turf. This was a period when the parallel LU lines lost it with graff , and you had Met Line in particular was blitzed with trains running around with murals and comments like "F===k the BTP sprayed on them" ...! -