Sir Michael Fallon resigns as Defence Secretary

[Bromley boy]

That kind of behaviour wasn't morally acceptable 30 years a go. Instead it was a case of bullies assuming that no one would dare challenge them.

But how do you punish “morally unacceptable” behaviour, if said behaviour isn’t also illegal?

Behavioural norms change over time. Whose to say what is acceptable today won’t be unacceptable in future?

 

[RichmondCommu]

It has never been morally acceptable to persist in sexual advances after someone has made it clear they aren't wanted, but it has been tolerated in society for a lot longer than it should have been.

Who exactly in society was tolerating that kind behaviour? 30 years a go the organisation I worked for didn't tolerate behaviour of that nature.

 

[najaB]

But how do you punish “morally unacceptable” behaviour, if said behaviour isn’t also illegal?

You can't. Hence a major part of any investigation will be finding out if any laws were broken.

 

[najaB]

30 years a go the organisation I worked for didn't tolerate behaviour of that nature.

Then congratulations for finding such a forward-thinking employer. Many women have reported that they were forced to suffer in silence well into the 1990s and men still find often find it difficult to be taken seriously if they try to report a female co-worker harassing them.

 

[Butts]

Who exactly in society was tolerating that kind behaviour? 30 years a go the organisation I worked for didn't tolerate behaviour of that nature.

The successors to "J Arthur Rank" and lot's of others I suspect.

 

[RichmondCommu]

But how do you punish “morally unacceptable” behaviour, if said behaviour isn’t also illegal?

Behavioural norms change over time. Whose to say what is acceptable today won’t be unacceptable in future?

If the behaviour went against the contents of the employee hand book then it was punished. Bullies still operated even though they knew damn well that what they were doing was wrong.

 

[najaB]

Bullies still operated even though they knew damn well that what they were doing was wrong.

I don't accept that they knew their behaviour was wrong. My uncle (who is well into his 80s) said recently that he can't see what all the fuss was about when Donald Trump said he "grabs em by the ....." - my uncle's words were something to the effect that a man should be able to have a cheeky pinch if he wants to.

By the way, he's a retired barrister who still practices as a solicitor.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I don't accept that they knew their behaviour was wrong. My uncle (who is well into his 80s) said recently that he can't see what all the fuss was about when Donald Trump said he "grabs em by the ....." - my uncle's words were something to the effect that a man should be able to have a cheeky pinch if he wants to.

By the way, he's a retired barrister who still practices as a solicitor.

Is it accurate to say that your uncle represents the majority?

 

[deltic]

I don't accept that they knew their behaviour was wrong. My uncle (who is well into his 80s) said recently that he can't see what all the fuss was about when Donald Trump said he "grabs em by the ....." - my uncle's words were something to the effect that a man should be able to have a cheeky pinch if he wants to.

By the way, he's a retired barrister who still practices as a solicitor.

Bet the women in his office didnt have the same opinion!

 

[Busaholic]

'Things were different then' says SIR Michael Fallon, aged 65. Well, SIR Michael, I'm four years your elder, and you talk self-serving bull. You may have comported yourself in this way all your life because you're an arrogant, unprincipled braggart and you've been able to get away with it, safe in the knowledge that the blue rinses of Sevenoaks, if they ever found out about it, would simper that you were an alpha male who had it in his DNA to behave this way. I'd never normally thank Andrea Leadsom for anything, but perhaps I'll make an exception: actually, it's now become clear that it was the brave actions of the journalist Jane Merrick that saw to him, so Schadenfreude.

To those on here who say 'why weren't these actions reported to anyone at the time?' the facts are that in many cases they were for Conservative, Labour and LibDem alike and they were either covered up or 'dealt with' (ineffectively). No less a source than a Tory MP who was a Whip at the time has been on the news today saying that he'd reported a sex pest MP from his own party so that action could be taken against him back in 2010 but he wasn't listened too.

 

[najaB]

Is it accurate to say that your uncle represents the majority?

He may or may not, but attitudes like his were certainly more common in the 1960s and 70s than they are now.

 

[Railops]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...itician-carl-sargeant-found-dead-sacked-last/

A Welsh Government minister has taken his own life just days after being suspended by the Labour Party in Wales over allegations about his personal conduct.
Carl Sargeant, a married father of two and minister in the Welsh Assembly, was found dead at his home in Connah's Quay in North Wales after Labour announced the investigation on Friday.

Dead because of the media witch hunt - how many more to come ?

 

[WelshBluebird]

As usual there are some completely innocent "allegations" being levelled. The Sun has a handy spreadsheet.


So what?

The women (yes, it is women who contribute to this closed WhatsApp group) who are conflating stuff like rape or sexual assault with incidents like "has sex with men" need to f*** off. It really makes me quite angry.

You realise the list is more of a list of what do party employees think they need to know to know to about the behaviour of MP's when it comes to things like that. Hence the reason consensual (but morally ambiguous) things are there too. While yes, having an affair say isn't illegal, it may place the party in a difficult position if that person is presented as a "family man", rr it may be embarrassing if an MP who is part of the party who banned watersports in porn is found to enjoy it etc etc. Sure some of the media reporting about it has been entirely atrocious, but the reason the list exists explains why the mix of seriousness of acts there.

In terms of that WhatsApp group (which is different to the list!), what on earth is wrong with women warning each other about the fact that certain MP's tend to get inappropriate?

 

[TheEdge]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...itician-carl-sargeant-found-dead-sacked-last/
Dead because of the media witch hunt - how many more to come ?

Well quite. Of course if those accusations proved to be false and an innocent man has committed suicide because of them I do hope suitable charges will be brought against the accusers.

Although they wont, because they never are, because thanks to our atrocious laws surrounding these sort of allegations the accused are always dragged through the mud, and when or if those claims are false its too late and the damage is done...

 

[WelshBluebird]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...itician-carl-sargeant-found-dead-sacked-last/



Dead because of the media witch hunt - how many more to come ?

Well quite. Of course if those accusations proved to be false and an innocent man has committed suicide because of them I do hope suitable charges will be brought against the accusers.

Although they wont, because they never are, because thanks to our atrocious laws surrounding these sort of allegations the accused are always dragged through the mud, and when or if those claims are false its too late and the damage is done...

Ok, so forgive me if I am missing somewhere here, but he was just suspended while it was investigated. What on earth is wrong with that? Many employers have rules which state that in cases where allegations of inappropriate behaviour / gross misconduct etc are investigated the employee in question is suspended until the investigation is complete.

 

[fowler9]

Perhaps they're the ones that you have to watch.

"Nice peas, Norma."

Ha ha. Spitting Image?

 

[najaB]

.Although they wont, because they never are, because thanks to our atrocious laws surrounding these sort of allegations...

What does the law have to do with a party suspending a member and the media reporting on the suspension?

 

[AlterEgo]

In terms of that WhatsApp group (which is different to the list!), what on earth is wrong with women warning each other about the fact that certain MP's tend to get inappropriate?

On the face of it, nothing, but when the unsubstantiated and unproven details are being leaked to journalists, quite a bit.

Someone’s dead now, and while he was suspended quite properly while an investigation was to take place, the media climate is such that he probably felt pre-judged by the people that matter most - the electorate.

I think it’s sad, and depressing. If the shoe were on the other foot, and it were - let’s say - women MPs under the spotlight for bullying - and a woman MP had topped herself, I think the overall reaction would be a great deal more sympathetic.

 

[AlterEgo]

What does the law have to do with a party suspending a member and the media reporting on the suspension?

Employment law and laws around the freedom of the press I assume.

 

[najaB]

Employment law and laws around the freedom of the press I assume.

Well, in that case I would think that suspension pending investigation rather than being fired on the spot, and a press that isn't beholden to politicians are both good things. There are many countries in the world where neither can be assumed.

 

[nlogax]

May be an idea to rename this the 'Ongoing cabinet ministers falls-from-grace thread', as right now Priti Patel is flying home from Nairobi to be (most likely) fired by the PM.

It's not as if this will be the last resignation or dismissal to happen for a while. Not with this government.

 

[furnessvale]

May be an idea to rename this the 'Ongoing cabinet ministers falls-from-grace thread', as right now Priti Patel is flying home from Nairobi to be (most likely) fired by the PM.

It's not as if this will be the last resignation or dismissal to happen for a while. Not with this government.

Given the last person being discussed is not a cabinet member, surely your headline should refer neutrally to ALL politicians.

 

[Dai Corner]

May be an idea to rename this the 'Ongoing cabinet ministers falls-from-grace thread', as right now Priti Patel is flying home from Nairobi to be (most likely) fired by the PM.

It's not as if this will be the last resignation or dismissal to happen for a while. Not with this government.

Mrs May needed to sack someone (anyone!) to show she still has some authority and presumably feels Ms Patel is sufficiently weak. She wouldn't dare sack any of the big hitters for breaking protocol as opposed to alleged sexual harassment.

 

[nlogax]

Mrs May needed to sack someone (anyone!) to show she still has some authority and presumably feels Ms Patel is sufficiently weak. She wouldn't dare sack any of the big hitters for breaking protocol as opposed to alleged sexual harassment.

She's in a dire position completely of her own making. Imagine having to be authoritative while having a government like that..like a bagful of brawling ferrets. All while staving off both Remainers and Brexiteers and trying to keep another general election from her door by keeping the DUP happy. Complete and utter mess and totally unsustainable.

 

[TheEdge]

What does the law have to do with a party suspending a member and the media reporting on the suspension?

My issue is with the way sexual allegations are made and reported. This man may have been totally innocent and it may have been malicious, in which case an innocent man is dead because of the witch hunt. The accused in sexual allegations need the same level of anonymity as the accusers.

 

[Dai Corner]

My issue is with the way sexual allegations are made and reported. This man may have been totally innocent and it may have been malicious, in which case an innocent man is dead because of the witch hunt. The accused in sexual allegations need the same level of anonymity as the accusers.

Apparently he died without knowing what he was alleged to have done. I can't imagine what was going through his mind in the last few days of his life. The allegor and whoever decided not to tell him have that on their consciences.

 

[najaB]

My issue is with the way sexual allegations are made and reported. This man may have been totally innocent and it may have been malicious, in which case an innocent man is dead because of the witch hunt. The accused in sexual allegations need the same level of anonymity as the accusers.

But, as far as I'm aware, this particular case hadn't yet reached the legal system as no charges appear to have filed.

 

[Dai Corner]

But, as far as I'm aware, this particular case hadn't yet reached the legal system as no charges appear to have filed.

Correct. It was going to be dealt with through the Labour Party's procedures. One assumes it would have been reported to the police if serious enough.

 

[WelshBluebird]

On the face of it, nothing, but when the unsubstantiated and unproven details are being leaked to journalists, quite a bit.

Someone’s dead now, and while he was suspended quite properly while an investigation was to take place, the media climate is such that he probably felt pre-judged by the people that matter most - the electorate.

I think it’s sad, and depressing. If the shoe were on the other foot, and it were - let’s say - women MPs under the spotlight for bullying - and a woman MP had topped herself, I think the overall reaction would be a great deal more sympathetic.

And yet we have someone else on this thread saying that instead of reporting people women should just take care of the problem themselves - isn't that partly what the WhatsApp group was doing?

And of course it is sad that someone felt they had no way out other than to take their own life (though, and I know I'll probably be attacked for saying this, just because he killed himself does not mean he is innocent, just the same as the allegations does not mean he is guilty).

My issue is with the way sexual allegations are made and reported. This man may have been totally innocent and it may have been malicious, in which case an innocent man is dead because of the witch hunt. The accused in sexual allegations need the same level of anonymity as the accusers.

But in this case, are we not essentially talking about workplace practices rather than legal ones. The guy was not arrested or charged with anything. He was suspended while essentially his employer carried out an investigation into accusations against him of what I guess would count as gross misconduct. Suspension while under investigation is nothing new and is pretty common across many employers. The only difference really here is the media involvement, but when you have a job that is in the public eye then if you are suspended then of course the media are going to report on it - not sure what else you can really suggest.