Abellio PF - Sold wrong ticket, let through barriers 5 times

[Sonadagothalus]

Hello,

As the title suggests I was issued a PF but find the circumstances highly unfair and am looking for options as to what I can do legally.

The history is that I purchased a ticket online, I was travelling from London and staying in a hotel and put the destination station of Southend Central (as this was the station opposite the hotel) in as the final station on the National Rail app , I needed to stop at Billericay and put this as the via option.

I now realise that it is Southend Victoria that trains run to via Billericay so perhaps with more research that could have been avoided, nonetheless the National Rail app offered a ticket type of between London to Southend Station - a flexible ticket via any route. When you go to purchase this ticket it redirects you to the Abellio website however they downgrade the ticket as one from London to Southend Central which is a C2C route. This was only apparent after when repeating my steps on the app.

I collect my tickets and make my journey exiting at a few stations along the way before finally leaving at Billericay and then later returning to carry on to Southend. The ticket did not work at any barrier with staff waving me through.

At Billericay a RPO is on board who throws me off the train at Southend Airport giving the usual bluster of criminal records etc, due to being involved with some rail campaigning I had a copy of the penalty fare rules and found the section on routing and explained to him that as the website had sold me the wrong ticket surely he could sell me the upgraded ticket that I wanted - No he refused and told me he didnt care about the rules as they were not valid.

He then sold me a ticket from a station prior to Billericay telling me that I did not get on there as no staff would let me through the barriers.

I paid under duress and issued an appeal explaining all that had happened in details with evidence to IRCAS. This was claimed to never have been received and I complained to Abellio who denied that staff let customers through with incorrect tickets. Given that I make the journey 4 times a year when I returned 2 months later I filmed myself showing incorrect tickets at Billericay showing tickets for Peterborough and Leicester at the gate and being waved through - Abellio claimed this did not prove their staff do this regularly, I screen recorded the National Rail app and the website selling the tickets changing this to the incorrect ticket, I was told this was my error as I should have checked I was buying the correct ticket.

I then escalated this to Transport Focus who after over a year have come back stating they cannot get Abellio to overturn this.

There seems to be no independent appeal route and Abellio and just flouting their power to issue fines with impunity, I don't see why I should pay what is multiple times the original fare because they set up a system that sold the wrong ticket and then allowed their staff to enter stations and board trains with the wrong ticket expecting me to know based on this experience that this is the wrong ticket.

I'm also aware they are targeted to issue fines and the cynic in me wonders if they structure situations like this in order to be able to issue these highly profitable fines.

If anyone is aware of any alternative option I can explore then I'd appreciate any suggestions, I'm currently lobbying my MP to do something but given Chris Grayling's record with railways I doubt this will achieve much.

 

[furlong]

Well there aren't nearly enough details here to comment really, but with penalty fares it is very important to focus on the fundamentals and not extraneous matters that have no bearing on it. Given the amount of effort you have put into this, have you read through the rules of the scheme and checked they were adhered to completely?

Picking up on one thing you mention - if a Penalty Fare is to be charged, there is only one correct fare. The Authorised Collector has no discretion - the level of the penalty is laid down by law and is not negotiable. It is precisely defined depending on the information available to the Authorised Collector at the time of issue. Did you check the amount was correct? The Authorised Collector cannot choose the station from which to charge it - if the rules say that one station must be used but it was issued from a different one that should provide a straightfoward appeal on the grounds it was issued unlawfully.

 

[bb21]

More importantly, exactly what ticket did you have and how much was it?

If you are not sure, perhaps best to either upload a photo of the ticket or your email confirmation for your booking, blanking out personally details obviously.

 

[furlong]

Regarding the problem of being sold the wrong ticket. Firstly, I think it would be a matter of determining, in law, what contract was actually formed, and this could be complicated where details got changed during the process, deciding whether or not notification of the changes was sufficient or not to effect the change and whether you should reasonably have noticed and understood etc. Secondly, there are Consumer Regulations that the ORR enforces, and they have duties to investigate certain types of problems, of which this might be one, but they say they will not pursue redress in individual cases. (Their focus seems to be on stopping problems from occurring again, or prosecuting blatantly deliberate breaches.)

 

[furlong]

Finally, there is also the question of what happened to the tickets to SOUTHEND STATIONS valid on both routes and whether any changes to the tickets and route validity were performed entirely lawfully. Has the passenger lost any rights available to them at the time of privatisation? You could start by issuing Freedom of Information requests to the DfT to obtain the relevant paperwork. (There are suspicions that ATOC/RDG may sometimes publish versions of Routeing Guides containing unapproved changes that have no effect in law.)

 

[Clip]

Regarding the problem of being sold the wrong ticket. Firstly, I think it would be a matter of determining, in law, what contract was actually formed, and this could be complicated where details got changed during the process, deciding whether or not notification of the changes was sufficient or not to effect the change and whether you should reasonably have noticed and understood etc. Secondly, there are Consumer Regulations that the ORR enforces, and they have duties to investigate certain types of problems, of which this might be one, but they say they will not pursue redress in individual cases. (Their focus seems to be on stopping problems from occurring again, or prosecuting blatantly deliberate breaches.)

As national rail isn't a ticket seller then there is no contract formed with them and only with the company they bought the ticket from.
Whilst it does seem the op is in a bit of a pickle they also have a responsibility to ensure that the ticket sellers website has the correct details inputted into it just as it would be that they have the correct ticket if sold at a window in a booking office.

I'd follow bb21 here and let them know which ticket was held for certain and how much it was.

Barriers accepting amy ticket at a multitude of stops doesn't help much as they may have not been set up correctly and staff not doing their job correctly on another day also doesn't help the situation the op finds themselves in

 

[Sonadagothalus]

Thanks for the reply folks, am happy to provide more details but did not want to open with a length and verbose post.

To respond to some of the points, I boarded at Billericay but was told that the ticket sold to me would be from Brentwood as that was "obviously" where I had boarded due to the lack of barriers. This was my first objection as I had not, while only a few stops prior it raised the question of could an RPO just determine a station boarded at and charge regardless of any proof.

Regarding the appeal about him charging me the wrong fare etc and not upgrading my existing ticket that was not valid on my route (I'm away with work and do not have the paperwork to photograph in front of me right now as this happened over a year ago now with TF only just coming back with their answer) I had sent all this off to be told my appeal was never received, I had even sent proof of postage after but this was rejected on the grounds this was never received, they also claim proof of postage doesn't prove content, this no appeal logged they claim the appeal window was closed - there is no possible advantage for me to have drafted the 5 page appeal with evidence and posted nothing as they infer. I only discovered the appeal window had expired when a letter was sent saying I did not appeal so the fare has increased. The appeal process itself is highly flawed to allow a possible postal error or internal admin error to result in the appeal being rejected so I was keen to escalate that to whatever body would hold authority on this.

Regarding the Southend Stations tickets. This process has changed in 2017 perhaps due to my complaint but at the time it would show a specific fare. I've uploaded the video of my screen recording so you can see it changes it from a £16.80 priced ticket to an £11.70 priced ticket, only when printing it out and examining it does it show this is only valid via C2C on their London to Southend route.

The legal aspects to my view (I welcome any opinions or opposing views) were that I was induced to believe the ticket I was buying off the Abellio website was valid for the journey variables I had suggested, on the 5 opportunities at stations along the route where I exited and entered the station where the ticket did not work there was a mutuality of obligations for me to ensure I purchased the correct ticket and also for Abellio to ensure that I had the correct ticket, something which they did not do by letting me through the barrier rather than advising me of my error.

My view is that every error on this was the result of an action of Abellio not myself and at every stage able to correct this they did not, so at the 1st opportunity to purchase the correct ticket and pay the variance as I had originally wanted to I was denied this, at best I claim I was off route rather than travelling to a station beyond my ticket or without a ticket altogether.

If you need anything else information wise happy to try to provide it, advise so far has been great thanks folks

 

[najaB]

From the screen recording it looks like the 'VIA' point isn't being passed through from the National Rail site to the ticket vendor's site. I have sympathy for you as it isn't obvious, but the drop in price from £16.80 to £11.70 should have been a clue that something had gone wrong. The passthrough seems to work on the desktop version of the website so perhaps the focus of your complaint should be that the app/mobile site isn't (or wasn't) working correctly.

 

[Sonadagothalus]

This was only picked up on when I was stopped and said I had selected the correct ticket and replicated the steps I took, I travel daily to various places so it's very rare I will keep an eye focused on the price for the whole transaction, something I do now I'd add.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Hi sonadagothalus.

Basically it looks like you bought a Via Barking ticket that isn't valid on the route you took.

Technology is allegedly a wonderful thing however you didn't check/notice what you were buying using a small screen on a mobile phone....your position is the same as any other internet shopper. The lesson is take care with what you click on and don't assume.

 

[Gareth Marston]

From the screen recording it looks like the 'VIA' point isn't being passed through from the National Rail site to the ticket vendor's site. I have sympathy for you as it isn't obvious, but the drop in price from £16.80 to £11.70 should have been a clue that something had gone wrong. The passthrough seems to work on the desktop version of the website so perhaps the focus of your complaint should be that the app/mobile site isn't (or wasn't) working correctly.

Its clearly default set to "Single" at that point when you read and look at it....the internet has been going along time now and these sort of things have been happening across all sorts of online retail ever since it started. I have limited sympathy the OP should know better that to just assume an online purchase is what they thought they were getting, golden rule of buying on the internet is check check and check again.

 

[cuccir]

This all seems a bit unfortunate. As Gareth Marston has said, There is some level of responsibility when making a purchase to check what you're buying. While this isn't the best purchasing process, there is a price change (as well as the actual subtly different wording on the ticket) which you could have noticed and this weakens your case somewhat.

Still, unless I'm missing something, you should not have been charged a Penalty Fare. The National Rail Conditions of Travel are clear on this. If:

you are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid... you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

So the appropriate response was to charge you for the difference between the £11.90 and £16.40 ticket, which Nat Rail Enquiries show as being valid via Billericay, rather than issuing a Penalty Fare.

With regards to appeal: proof of postage isn't proof of receipts or content, but at this point either you're being very unlucky or Abelio are being very dodgy.

I think you need to focus in on this issue; the stuff about misdirecting via the app and the attitude of the RPO kind of gets in the way of your complaint, which is that you shouldn't have been sold a Penalty Fare. The stuff about targets and conspiracy descends into further nonsense. Without wanting to be rude, I sense you may have a tendency to verbosity, and in making a complaint precision and conciseness are key. If you escalate this, focus in on this one issue - particularly, as Gareth note, you were at least partially culpable for buying the wrong ticket in the first place.

As to where you could go next: either an MP or the DfT, if you wanted to continue with this process? Or alternatively, direct to someone at Abellio Greater Anglia: have you attempted to contact the CEO's office?

 

[bb21]

I wouldn't go down the argument about being charged the difference. Single/return tickets are no longer issued to Southend Stns (which I just found out about to my horror). This would therefore be a case of "deviation from the route" rather than "off route".

I am highly uneasy about this practice of removing flexibility by abolishing station groups. The Routeing Guide was similarly amended with the abolition of Southend group, and appropriate routeing points being replaced by Pitsea and Wickford, effectively doubling the fare for anyone wishing to make a round trip out one way and return the other.

To start with, I would focus more on the possible procedural irregularity aspect of this Penalty Fare. (Is this what you were issued? How much were you charged? It should be a minimum of £20 if a Penalty Fare.) If the Penalty Fare were issued from an incorrect station, the whole thing should be null and void.

I am also slightly confused as to how much you ended up paying, given your mention that "so the fare has increased".

The questions raised by furlong in Post 5 would also be worth an FoI. It is a quite shoddy practice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While this is a little OT, this issue would also be solved by single-fare pricing (just buy the desired single out and back with no price penalty). Unfortunately we seem to be getting half of the solution here.

 

[Gareth Marston]

While this is a little OT, this issue would also be solved by single-fare pricing (just buy the desired single out and back with no price penalty). Unfortunately we seem to be getting half of the solution here.

Its a good example of two things this case. Firstly why Group Stations are sensible and desirable and secondly the perils of not checking carefully what you buy on the internet.

 

[bb21]

Yes, but I think this is best left to a different thread.

 

[jon0844]

Its clearly default set to "Single" at that point when you read and look at it....the internet has been going along time now and these sort of things have been happening across all sorts of online retail ever since it started. I have limited sympathy the OP should know better that to just assume an online purchase is what they thought they were getting, golden rule of buying on the internet is check check and check again.

To be fair, train operators (or retailers in general) don't say that when encouraging people to buy online, and especially on mobile-friendly sites given more people are using mobiles and tablets for shopping. As such, if something is going wrong that shouldn't, I would consider treating the problem as two separate issues. Firstly deal with the revenue side of things, and then try and see what you can do to highlight problems with buying on your phone. You might be able to get an apology and a payment as a gesture of goodwill, as well as a thank you for helping them fix any errors that could affect others.

 

[Silver Cobra]

I wouldn't go down the argument about being charged the difference. Single/return tickets are no longer issued to Southend Stns (which I just found out about to my horror). This would therefore be a case of "deviation from the route" rather than "off route".

I am highly uneasy about this practice of removing flexibility by abolishing station groups. The Routeing Guide was similarly amended with the abolition of Southend group, and appropriate routeing points being replaced by Pitsea and Wickford, effectively doubling the fare for anyone wishing to make a round trip out one way and return the other.

Apologies for going slightly off-topic here, but is this only in the case of tickets to a Southend station with an origin of a London terminal? I did a quick check with GWR's website of a journey from Stevenage to Southend Central, and it still offers the ticket as Stevenage to Southend Stations.

 

[bb21]

Apologies for going slightly off-topic here, but is this only in the case of tickets to a Southend station with an origin of a London terminal? I did a quick check with GWR's website of a journey from Stevenage to Southend Central, and it still offers the ticket as Stevenage to Southend Stations.

Yes. I should have clarified that I was referring to tickets to/from London Terminals only.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Yes. I should have clarified that I was referring to tickets to/from London Terminals only.

OK, thanks for clarifying. I travel from Biggleswade/Stevenage to Southend a few times a year, and while I have only used C2C to Southend Central so far, I'm considering using the Greater Anglia service to Victoria in one direction next time, seeing the ticket is valid to both stations. Knowing this issue only applies to tickets with an origin of a London terminal, there shouldn't be a risk of me getting the wrong ticket if and when I do this journey.

Anyways, I'll leave it there. Apologies again for the off-topic.

 

[furlong]

So the appropriate response was to charge you for the difference between the £11.90 and £16.40 ticket, which Nat Rail Enquiries show as being valid via Billericay, rather than issuing a Penalty Fare.

Indeed, the National Rail Enquiries search result might be sufficient to demonstrate the continued applicability notwithstanding the Southend Stations complication:

Ticket routing. A passenger who has a ticket for the journey they are making, but who is using a route on which their ticket is not valid, may not be charged a penalty fare. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage allow the passenger to pay an excess fare to travel on a different route from that shown on their ticket.

 

[BluePenguin]

I remember reading somewhere that the rule is if you have a wrong but otherwise valid ticket between an origin and destination you cannot be fined nor penalty fared but can be forced to pay a supplement to upgrade

 

[bb21]

I remember reading somewhere that the rule is if you have a wrong but otherwise valid ticket between an origin and destination you cannot be fined nor penalty fared but can be forced to pay a supplement to upgrade

That is correct. If your ticket is only invalid because the routing is wrong then you should not be Penalty Fared.

Complications may arise as in this case the destination is arguably different, however I doubt this was a scenario envisaged when the Penalty Fare rules were written, so quite messy.

 

[TMD Tom]

I don't have anything further to add to the rights and wrongs on both sides.

In terms of taking the matter further, you could contact GA's MD who is Jamie Burles. You can email jamie.burles@greateranglia.co.uk to do this. I would keep the email concise and focus on the points noted above.

Apparently Mr Burles personally reads each email he receives to that email address although it's unlikely you will receive a response directly from him. There is something you should be aware of though. The email will usually be passed on to a member of staff to investigate and reply to you. The same member of staff is usually tasked with investigating TF complaints too so if you have already been through TF you may just get the same or similar reply. The customer service team would have been in touch with a manager from revenue protection to get their comments about the PF and whether it was correctly issued to you, especially when going through TF. As such it may come down to what that particular manager understood of the circumstances and their interpretation of the PF rules as to the outcome of your complaint.