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ECML delays 05/11

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Tetchytyke

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So what do you expect them to do?

Firstly, and most importantly, I'd not detrain people in a location where you cannot keep them warm and safe. Spalding station doesn't even have a toilet.

It was very cold in these parts yesterday- I'm from Newcastle and needed gloves and a scarf- and just dumping people on a closed station in the middle of nowhere had the potential for serious issues. Especially on a weekend when young children are more likely to be travelling.
 
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gavin

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VTEC have a good service this morning with a few alterations

The 06:15 London Kings Cross to Edinburgh will terminate at Newcastle
The 07:30 Edinburgh to London Kings Cross is cancelled - Tickets valid on the 08:00 EDB to Kings X
The 09:30 Edinburgh to London Kings Cross will start at Newcastle - Tickets valid on the 10:00 EDB to Kings X which will call additionally at Berwick
 

ainsworth74

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Firstly, and most importantly, I'd not detrain people in a location where you cannot keep them warm and safe. Spalding station doesn't even have a toilet.

Quite. I'll happily say that once they did decide to detrain they did everything possible to get the people moving again.

For me, however, it's that initial decision to detrain that's incredibly suspect. The set was obviously moveable so I'd have to question why they didn't try and proceed to Peterborough or even head back to Lincoln (where there would be facilities). I appreciate that with 66s hauling a 225 set there would no ETS but I can't help but feel that a short train ride on emergency lights versus a multi-hour wait in the near freezing cold would have been far better.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Are there any rules/regs that dictate what stations are deemed suitable locations for de-training all passengers from a train?
 

mildertduck

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I can think of worse places to be detrained at. Within two minutes level walk of the station, I can find a pub (which will include toilets and warmth, a couple of takeaways (probably of dubious quality), and a Wetherspoon 6 minutes away. It's not exactly the middle of nowhere!

Had I expected a long wait (e.g. when VTEC announced 50 minutes), I would have gone and waited (and made use of) one of the above. If someone was waiting on the platform, I would have asked them to let me know when the buses arrived by ringing me (or used social media).

I know someone's going to come up with "not everyone has a phone to find out" but enough people do to be able to pass the word around and help with enquiries!
 

91109

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There was a medical emergency on 1A31, which is why it was set back to Spalding so that the ambulance crew could attend.
 

Stampy

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There was also a woman helped off ANOTHER ram packed train when it pulled into PBO last night - think it was a Grand Central HST...

Probably THIS train... The 1A69

She was helped into the waiting room between platforms 2&3, and later helped into a GN train south from Platform 3.
 

bb21

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Quite. I'll happily say that once they did decide to detrain they did everything possible to get the people moving again.

For me, however, it's that initial decision to detrain that's incredibly suspect. The set was obviously moveable so I'd have to question why they didn't try and proceed to Peterborough or even head back to Lincoln (where there would be facilities). I appreciate that with 66s hauling a 225 set there would no ETS but I can't help but feel that a short train ride on emergency lights versus a multi-hour wait in the near freezing cold would have been far better.

It was in a station and a comparatively safe environment. Imagine it setting off towards Peterborough on emergency lighting and no heating, and then a passcom being pulled with medical attention being required in the middle of nowhere, which is highly likely. Now you will be screwed with no realistic prospect of the issue being resolved any time soon. Unfortunately you are not really spoilt for choices on the joint line for safe locations. With a few trains trapped behind, it probably wasn't quite expected that it would take that long to clear the crowd, nor that some idiot would throw a brick through a window stopping all jobs.

It is all about balancing risks in these situations. It was probably the correct decision at the time, but situations change and things didn't quite pan out as expected.
 

Mag_seven

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Are there any more scheduled diversions using class 67's before any bi-mode Class 800's come in? I'm sure VTEC will be reviewing loco hauling by class 67's as a result of this!
 

gavin

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Are there any more scheduled diversions using class 67's before any bi-mode Class 800's come in? I'm sure VTEC will be reviewing loco hauling by class 67's as a result of this!

Diverts every weekend this month via Lincoln and DCL diverts early next year
 

gavin

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BTP have confirmed a 38 year old man has died after he was hit by a train at Northallerton yesterday

A British Transport Police spokesman said: "A 38-year-old man has sadly died after he was struck by a train at Northallerton station on Sunday afternoon. "Officers were called to the station shortly after 3pm and attended alongside paramedics. "The man’s family have been informed. "This incident is not being treated as suspicious and a file will be prepared for the coroner."

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/15641985.Man_in_his_30s_killed_on_East_Coast_Mainline/
 

6Gman

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It was in a station and a comparatively safe environment. Imagine it setting off towards Peterborough on emergency lighting and no heating, and then a passcom being pulled with medical attention being required in the middle of nowhere, which is highly likely. Now you will be screwed with no realistic prospect of the issue being resolved any time soon. Unfortunately you are not really spoilt for choices on the joint line for safe locations. With a few trains trapped behind, it probably wasn't quite expected that it would take that long to clear the crowd, nor that some idiot would throw a brick through a window stopping all jobs.

It is all about balancing risks in these situations. It was probably the correct decision at the time, but situations change and things didn't quite pan out as expected.

I think bb21 hits the nail on the head. Armchair Generals never lose a battle, but it's a bit tougher on the ground.

The one thing that might have been useful/ relevant (once it became clear that detraining and a potentially lengthy wait was a danger) would have been to liaise with the relevant Local Authority who should have an Emergency Plan in place for civil emergencies. I know this has been used in Crewe a couple of times in the past.
 

Tetchytyke

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It was in a station and a comparatively safe environment. Imagine it setting off towards Peterborough on emergency lighting and no heating, and then a passcom being pulled with medical attention being required in the middle of nowhere

Emergency lighting or no emergency lighting, pulling the passcom could happen on any train at any time. Its what, 15 minutes from Spalding to Peterborough? It's a small risk.

I'm sure the plan was to clear Spalding platform with the following trains. But they should have checked to make sure those trains *could* accommodate extra bodies before turfing everybody off at a closed rural station. Its not hard to ring the guard and ask, realistically, how many extra the train will accommodate.

Control shouldn't be de-training without a solid plan for dealing with the consequences, unless its an emergency. A shrug of the shoulders and a coach three hours later is not a plan. The brick didn't help but the brick wasnt the problem: those trains didn't have room for extra passengers anyway, which is why they sailed through Spalding without picking up the stranded passengers.
 

91109

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Emergency lighting or no emergency lighting, pulling the passcom could happen on any train at any time. Its what, 15 minutes from Spalding to Peterborough? It's a small risk.

I'm sure the plan was to clear Spalding platform with the following trains. But they should have checked to make sure those trains *could* accommodate extra bodies before turfing everybody off at a closed rural station. Its not hard to ring the guard and ask, realistically, how many extra the train will accommodate.

Control shouldn't be de-training without a solid plan for dealing with the consequences, unless its an emergency. A shrug of the shoulders and a coach three hours later is not a plan. The brick didn't help but the brick wasnt the problem: those trains didn't have room for extra passengers anyway, which is why they sailed through Spalding without picking up the stranded passengers.
As I said in an earlier post, there was a medical emergency on said train. The plan was to drag the train to PBO, however there was no communication between the two Class 66's attached to the failed train and the leading cab of 1A31, hence why it was set back to Spalding.
 

Chris M

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however there was no communication between the two Class 66's attached to the failed train and the leading cab of 1A31, hence why it was set back to Spalding.
How is it possible these days that there can be no communication? Surely even a mobile phone on speaker in each cab would have done the trick?
 

221129

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How is it possible these days that there can be no communication? Surely even a mobile phone on speaker in each cab would have done the trick?
I think it was more the issue in that the Locos wouldn't talk to each other.
 

Eccles1983

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How is it possible these days that there can be no communication? Surely even a mobile phone on speaker in each cab would have done the trick?


Against most if not all TOC's rules.

I would refuse to move if control suggested using mobile phones for communication, its a massive distraction.
 

ainsworth74

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As I said in an earlier post, there was a medical emergency on said train.
Which is fine, go to Spalding and remove the casualty so they can get the treatment needed. At no point does that plan require then detraining everyone else!
 

43094

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Possibly issues with 1A31 / door interlock if it had gone back to Peterborough from Spalding?

Yes, VTEC Control is in York.

Beyond that, I shouldn't comment, apart from to say that I doubt de-training etc would have happened without all options having considered and discounted...
 

bb21

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Possibly issues with 1A31 / door interlock if it had gone back to Peterborough from Spalding?

Yes, VTEC Control is in York.

Beyond that, I shouldn't comment, apart from to say that I doubt de-training etc would have happened without all options having considered and discounted...

Unfortunately it is much easier for some to sit there and go "should have done this, should have done that" without really knowing what options had already been explored and what factors had to be taken into account.

Control don't just sit there and pull the first option out of thin air, but the way some whinge about it, you'd think all control staff are incompetent but themselves.
 

bb21

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Emergency lighting or no emergency lighting, pulling the passcom could happen on any train at any time. Its what, 15 minutes from Spalding to Peterborough? It's a small risk.

Small risk? That is your judgement. Someone was already ill, which suggests keeping everyone onboard cramped conditions for even longer isn't a good option.

I'm sure the plan was to clear Spalding platform with the following trains. But they should have checked to make sure those trains *could* accommodate extra bodies before turfing everybody off at a closed rural station. Its not hard to ring the guard and ask, realistically, how many extra the train will accommodate.

Do you know for certain that they didn't try it? Maybe they couldn't get hold of some of the crew due to mobile reception black spots, or that crew were busy dealing with customers. There were also trains further behind. Those ones which were full weren't the only trains remaining. There probably was sufficient capacity to clear the vast majority of the crowd had things gone to plan with a not unreasonable delay.

The problem is that the train had to go back north for attention. Do you keep everyone onboard and delay them further, or do you detrain and try and get following services which are already stacked behind to clear them? You have a short period of time and you need to make your decision.

Without the idiot throwing the brick, I doubt so much faff would have been made out of this issue.

Control shouldn't be de-training without a solid plan for dealing with the consequences, unless its an emergency. A shrug of the shoulders and a coach three hours later is not a plan.

No plan is 100% foolproof, and who gave "a shrug of the shoulders and a coach three hours later" as the first option? Sometimes **** happens in life and things fall apart in a way which cannot really be foreseen.

The brick didn't help but the brick wasnt the problem: those trains didn't have room for extra passengers anyway, which is why they sailed through Spalding without picking up the stranded passengers.

Were there not further trains behind the immediate few following? Look further back. Had the broken window incident not occurred, and control had sent a train full of pax back north when they all wanted destination further south, I bet I'd see outcry on this forum questioning why they didn't detrain at Spalding and allow the trains behind to pick them up.

Your hyperbole and earlier calls for heads to roll just shows how little you understand how things work and how fond you are of knee-jerk reactions.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Against most if not all TOC's rules.

I would refuse to move if control suggested using mobile phones for communication, its a massive distraction.

Do GSM-R units have any kind of speaker phone type functionality that could be used?
 

91109

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Small risk? That is your judgement. Someone was already ill, which suggests keeping everyone onboard cramped conditions for even longer isn't a good option.

Do you know for certain that they didn't try it? Maybe they couldn't get hold of some of the crew due to mobile reception black spots, or that crew were busy dealing with customers. There were also trains further behind. Those ones which were full weren't the only trains remaining. There probably was sufficient capacity to clear the vast majority of the crowd had things gone to plan with a not unreasonable delay.

The problem is that the train had to go back north for attention. Do you keep everyone onboard and delay them further, or do you detrain and try and get following services which are already stacked behind to clear them? You have a short period of time and you need to make your decision.

Without the idiot throwing the brick, I doubt so much faff would have been made out of this issue.



No plan is 100% foolproof, and who gave "a shrug of the shoulders and a coach three hours later" as the first option? Sometimes **** happens in life and things fall apart in a way which cannot really be foreseen.



Were there not further trains behind the immediate few following? Look further back. Had the broken window incident not occurred, and control had sent a train full of pax back north when they all wanted destination further south, I bet I'd see outcry on this forum questioning why they didn't detrain at Spalding and allow the trains behind to pick them up.

Your hyperbole and earlier calls for heads to roll just shows how little you understand how things work and how fond you are of knee-jerk reactions.

If I could publish excerpts from the daily logs and show people exactly what went on behind the scenes last night, I would gladly do so. Pretty easy to pass judgement on something when you don't have all the facts surrounding what happened.
 

Chris M

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Against most if not all TOC's rules.

I would refuse to move if control suggested using mobile phones for communication, its a massive distraction.
How is a mobile phone on speaker phone on a continuous call to another phone in the same state any more or less of a distraction than a radio connection between the same two parties?
 

SpacePhoenix

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How close would their drivers have been to running out of hours as a result of the incident?
 
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