Virgin Voyager Coach VS MK3

[asylumxl]

HST quibbles in no particular order, from a regular user...

1) Pressure pad doors - constantly opening and closing, either due to faults or luggage resting ontop
2) Slam doors - Heat loss, and noise. Coupled with number 1, it can make travelling unpleasant for seats closer to the doors.
3) Acceleration - Slower than all 22x series. EMT HSTs cannot keep time with 222s due to this.
4) Refurbs - Cancels out any supposed superiority the HSTs offer over the 22xs.
5) Ride comfort - 22xs said to be more comfortable, softer sprung, with the HSTs being quite hard.
6) Tilting - They don't tilt. I personally like tilting trains, and so do the rest of the world as far as I can tell. Only Britain has this idiotic fear of tilting due to negative links to the APT.

Im sure I could come up with more, but I'm tired.

 

[Phoenix]

HST quibbles in no particular order, from a regular user...

1) Pressure pad doors - constantly opening and closing, either due to faults or luggage resting ontop
2) Slam doors - Heat loss, and noise. Coupled with number 1, it can make travelling unpleasant for seats closer to the doors.
3) Acceleration - Slower than all 22x series. EMT HSTs cannot keep time with 222s due to this.
4) Refurbs - Cancels out any supposed superiority the HSTs offer over the 22xs.
5) Ride comfort - 22xs said to be more comfortable, softer sprung, with the HSTs being quite hard.
6) Tilting - They don't tilt. I personally like tilting trains, and so do the rest of the world as far as I can tell. Only Britain has this idiotic fear of tilting due to negative links to the APT.

Im sure I could come up with more, but I'm tired.

Well these aree all fair points the only I do not agree with is numbers 1 and 9 as with the 22x series the doors are worse in reliabilty as when sat on a canted rail in a station the doors if opened fail to close also the doors have no sensors so if a person is left standing between the doorway they are either slammed by the door or their valuable luggage is trapped.

And the final point I cannot agree with because out of the whole 22x series only one class tilts and only on one route and for that matter doesn't always tilt on such route I will partly blame this upon this skepticism of tilting trains.

so yeah good points made there.

 

[SuperVoyager]

People often bring up the fact of Voyagers limited luggage space.. But in acctualy fact, Get on a voyager you see no luggage inside the doors blocking the aisle.

Get on a HST and its a whole differnt story... Luggage stacked half way up the exterior doors (witch is acctually a safety hazard, say you have to evacuate the train quickly you wouldent be able to leave through the doors due to this) Often at stations you have to climb up over other peoples luggage beacause they have no were else to put it.

As Asylumxl Mentions, It takes ages and ages for hst's to accelerate. + people standing in vestubles looking out of windows.. presure pads open the door everytime they move from window to window.

Voyagers have a much better interior to the HST's and a MUCH MUCH MUCH better performance.

 

[VirginTrainFreak]

HST Are Rubbish Because the doors are hard to open and they dont tilt and take to long to accelerate were voyagers accelerate quicker

 

[Hyperen]

HST quibbles in no particular order, from a regular user...

1) Pressure pad doors - constantly opening and closing, either due to faults or luggage resting ontop
2) Slam doors - Heat loss, and noise. Coupled with number 1, it can make travelling unpleasant for seats closer to the doors.
3) Acceleration - Slower than all 22x series. EMT HSTs cannot keep time with 222s due to this.
4) Refurbs - Cancels out any supposed superiority the HSTs offer over the 22xs.
5) Ride comfort - 22xs said to be more comfortable, softer sprung, with the HSTs being quite hard.
6) Tilting - They don't tilt. I personally like tilting trains, and so do the rest of the world as far as I can tell. Only Britain has this idiotic fear of tilting due to negative links to the APT.

Im sure I could come up with more, but I'm tired.

1 - I've seen at least as many internal Voyager doors stuck open. Also the ones that do work shut on people which can be a real pain (sometimes literally) when people are boarding/leaving the train.

4 - Why does a refurbishment mean that HSTs must have lost their advantages?

They still have benefits of the non-tilt profile and lack of underfloor engines for a start. In some cases the refurbs have increased the gap in comfort levels between Voyagers and HSTs. For instance, the GNER/NXEC HST Mallard refurbs are the most comfortable trains I have had the pleasure to travel on. Even with the poor refurb that FGW performed on its HSTs, I would still much rather travel onboard one of those than a claustrophobic, noisy, rattly Voyager.

 

[SuperVoyager]

claustrophobic, noisy, rattly Voyager.

1. They are not Claustrophobic or noisey or Rattly
2. HST's are Claustrophobic

 

[WillPS]

A lot of these faults people speak of on these I've never once seen - luggage complaints for example, HSTs have two flipping huge spaces for it in powercars, if it's not being left in them then train crews aren't doing their job properly, surely!!

As for the pressure do thing - HSTs do my head in with this. Voyagers do a bloody good job. You shouldn't stand in the pressure door doorway - and if you do just tap the bloody button every 5 seconds or so and you're fine.

The interiors are okay they just stink - a massive oversight which should have been cured following delivery of the first unit!! Having a fleet running around stinking is a joke, and reflects badly on all involved.

I don't find them ugly and I find them pretty comfortable. The main problems are the aforementioned odours, and their completely inadequate length/expansion capabilities - corridor connections and BSI couplers wouldn't have been at all stupid!

What CrossCountry's opinion of the units is, I don't know. However XC, Angel Trains, the DFT or whoever should now insist on the smells being sorted; these units may be in service for another 10 or 20 years!!! If a complete strip down and rebuild is neccessary - get on with it.

 

[VirginTrainFreak]

1 - I've seen at least as many internal Voyager doors stuck open. Also the ones that do work shut on people which can be a real pain (sometimes literally) when people are boarding/leaving the train.

4 - Why does a refurbishment mean that HSTs must have lost their advantages?

They still have benefits of the non-tilt profile and lack of underfloor engines for a start. In some cases the refurbs have increased the gap in comfort levels between Voyagers and HSTs. For instance, the GNER/NXEC HST Mallard refurbs are the most comfortable trains I have had the pleasure to travel on. Even with the poor refurb that FGW performed on its HSTs, I would still much rather travel onboard one of those than a claustrophobic, noisy, rattly Voyager.

Voyagers are Better they Dont Take Up A Hole Platform Where's A Hst Does,Voyagers have Overhead luggae racks & storage racks at the end of each carrage Hst's Dont

 

[Aictos]

220s and 221s can't take as many people as a single HST can though even in multiple operation which is the important thing.

Which is why 220s and 221s etc.... will only be suitable for short haul runs like St Pancras to Derby or Sheffield, HSTs are better for long haul runs such as Kings Cross to Aberdeen.

God help the East Coast if we had to put up with 220s on the Scottish services!

 

[MCR247]

HST Are Rubbish Because the doors are hard to open and they dont tilt and take to long to accelerate were voyagers accelerate quicker

and since when do voyager tilt? Since when do any trains apart from 390s & 221s tilt? (that are in service). So you dont like any intercity train apart from those two?

 

[37372]

2. HST's are Claustrophobic

That made me laugh, never heard that one before! They are actually vary spacious trains.
The only claustrophobic train here is the voyager with it's tall seats being lined up perfectly with a window pillar.

 

[asylumxl]

A lot of these faults people speak of on these I've never once seen - luggage complaints for example, HSTs have two flipping huge spaces for it in powercars, if it's not being left in them then train crews aren't doing their job properly, surely!!

get on a busy London to Penzance train and the problem is quite clear. Or a busy London to Edinburgh train for that matter.

4 - Why does a refurbishment mean that HSTs must have lost their advantages?

They still have benefits of the non-tilt profile and lack of underfloor engines for a start. In some cases the refurbs have increased the gap in comfort levels between Voyagers and HSTs. For instance, the GNER/NXEC HST Mallard refurbs are the most comfortable trains I have had the pleasure to travel on. Even with the poor refurb that FGW performed on its HSTs, I would still much rather travel onboard one of those than a claustrophobic, noisy, rattly Voyager.

To be honest, I detest the Mallard Refurbs. I'm quite tall (around 6 3) and I find I have no leg room. The seat backs are quite low too and do not really provide good support for my back. A lot of taller people I speak to like the FGW Refurbs, due to the high backs. They mean you do not have to slouch and thus have more leg room.

 

[Yank 119]

Wow, what a discussion.

Since I've only experienced Super Voyagers twice, back in 2004, I'll give my limited input. They were both XC services that were at the time provided by Virgin. Whilst I have few remarkable memories to recount, a few things stick in my mind.

Boarding the Bombardier Voyager at Basingstoke, I experienced firsthand why these units are known as "vomiters". The stench from the retention toilet system was overwhelming. While I support the idea of environmentally-friendly toilets, they don't have to stink to high heaven. This was not an ideal first encounter. I also recall this particular service being absolutely packed, and luggage was strewn about the coach. I remember having a hard time finding some place to put my bag. Luckily it was only a short ride up to Reading where we changed trains.

My second encounter was another VT XC service from Birmingham New Street to York. It was much less crowded, and was an overall pleasant trip. However, I do remember there being a noticeable smell of diesel exhaust the whole way, and that particular coach rattled more than what I noticed on my previous journey.

Having only experienced the Mk4s, I can only make the comparison based on those, which is not relevant to this thread. Since I'm a LHS man at heart, I'm going to have to give my vote to any coaching stock, hands down. No annoying noise from beneath, no diesel fumes constantly hanging in the air.

That's my opinion. Fire away.

 

[asylumxl]

I think the toilet problem could be easilly fixed. The 222s do not suffer from this (or not noticably). I believe in the rush to complete the order, Bombardier placed the Ventilation duct right next to the vent for the retention tank.

As far as rattling, I've been on a fair few rattling MK3s. They vary in state too.

The diesel, ever been in the first or last coach of an HST set? With all due respect, the MK4 is a very different coach. It has no slams doors for one, and the locos is electric, goes without saying there won't be diesel fumes .

 

[Daimler]

Okay for speed and durability voyagers are one of the best out there at the moment but their body profile and general layout are something a few out there can laugh at.

I think you're being too kind to the Voyagers. The state of Arriva's ones inside is hardly a testament to their so-called 'durability'.

EDIT: Ooh, 'station supervisor' now. Very nice!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

HST quibbles in no particular order, from a regular user...

1) Pressure pad doors - constantly opening and closing, either due to faults or luggage resting ontop
2) Slam doors - Heat loss, and noise. Coupled with number 1, it can make travelling unpleasant for seats closer to the doors.
3) Acceleration - Slower than all 22x series. EMT HSTs cannot keep time with 222s due to this.
4) Refurbs - Cancels out any supposed superiority the HSTs offer over the 22xs.
5) Ride comfort - 22xs said to be more comfortable, softer sprung, with the HSTs being quite hard.
6) Tilting - They don't tilt. I personally like tilting trains, and so do the rest of the world as far as I can tell. Only Britain has this idiotic fear of tilting due to negative links to the APT.

Im sure I could come up with more, but I'm tired.

I agree entirely with no. 1, and this is the most irritating thing about the Mk3 coach for me - especially when they won't shut, and I have to (I can't relax if I don't) get up and mess with it until it does!
No. 2 is linked to no. 1 - if the vestibule door remains closed, it's fine.
No. 3 is another fair point. But when we're talking about the Virgin Voyager coach and the Mk3 coach, isn't valid (OK, that's a cop-out ).
No. 4 is only true in the case of FGW. Grand Central, NXEC, and Cross Country's refurbished HSTs all leave a Voyager in their dust for comfort (in my opinion) and spaciousness. In first class, FGW's is right up there too.
No. 5 I disagree with. I prefer the ride of a Mk3 coach, but I've no 'proof'.
No. 6 I disagree with also. We've embraced tilting and put it on our main business route! Sure, in Italy they have tilting trains, but I notice they're building high-speed dedicated lines now with what they call 'Eurostars'. It's not ideal for passenger comfort and can only really be seen as a stop-gap in technology. Also, of course, 90% of Voyagers don't tilt.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Voyagers are Better they Dont Take Up A Hole Platform Where's A Hst Does

And this is better why?

Voyagers have Overhead luggae racks & storage racks at the end of each carrage Hst's Dont

Well, they do have overhead luggage racks. And they have a huge storage rack at either end of the train. A massive luggage compartment in either power car. Also, they do have storage racks at the end of each (I think) carriage too. What they don't have, of course, is oversized toilets wasting useful luggage or seated space...

 

[87015]

I have never been a fan of the 221 and 222 and 220 but the only people I actually blame is Bombardier as they seem to lack an perspective on how decent trains are made.

How can Virgin not be at fault, they ordered and laid down the specification for the damn things.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Voyagers are Better they Dont Take Up A Hole Platform Where's A Hst Does

Oh what a beast, long trains are crap?! Lets just build single units for ever more and sod the passengers!

 

[devon_metro]

Put an 8 car Voyager (XC refurb) on a busy Paddington -Penzance and I assure you the luggage situation would be a total nghtmare. Let's not forget the small overhead racks. That stupid curved panel renders them useless unless your bag is small.

I'll admit mk3 doors are annoying but Only normally because people are stood on them or luggage is placed incorectly. On Voyagers you wait for hours whilst they slowly slide across. The mk3 doors when they have sufficient air in the system are much quicker.

I fail to see how people can justify the Voyager design is better than the mk3. It has so many flaws whereas all of the points regarding mk3s are small niggles. Best way is to ask the passengers!

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

Speaking purely as a passenger here...
Ive been on Mk3s (GC and GNER/NXEC), Voyagers, Pioneers, Mk4s...

Mk3s: The GC ones are really comfy compared with the Mallard Mk3s, My legs, back and butt go to sleep after ten minutes on a Mallard coach (goes for the Mk4s too), where as I can sit for the entire journey (and have done when travelling as a pax) on a GC Mk3 with no problems. Also, the legroom on a GC Mk3 is sceond to none. As to the internal doors, yes people leave bags on the pads, but the bags usually fit in the rack with some juggling around, or they go on the overhead racks.
One huge advantage the Mk3s have over everything else is that when the AirCon fails in the summer, you simply open the door windows and switch off the internal doors. Can't do that on the others. Yes it means its noisy but at least air can flow through the coach.

Pioneers: Had my laptop bag land on my head from the overhead rack, despite me wedging it in. At least they dont stink of urine!

Voyagers: Really do not like these, they stink of urine, and the luggage space is woefully inadequate. One rack on a Mk3 has more room than an entire coach on a voayger!! And there's two of them per Mk3 unless there is the disabled toilet. The voyagers are starting to rattle a hell of a lot. The internal doors are annoying when going round a corner and when waiting to alight.

Mk4s: Again the seats are rock hard, and for those of us who have hurt our backs it's not good news. I suffered last summer when travelling back and forth for work. They are also very noisy if sitting at the ends, the bogies rattle a lot.

 

[Pumbaa]

A lot of these faults people speak of on these I've never once seen - luggage complaints for example, HSTs have two flipping huge spaces for it in powercars, if it's not being left in them then train crews aren't doing their job properly, surely!!

As for the pressure do thing - HSTs do my head in with this. Voyagers do a bloody good job. You shouldn't stand in the pressure door doorway - and if you do just tap the bloody button every 5 seconds or so and you're fine.

The interiors are okay they just stink - a massive oversight which should have been cured following delivery of the first unit!! Having a fleet running around stinking is a joke, and reflects badly on all involved.

I don't find them ugly and I find them pretty comfortable. The main problems are the aforementioned odours, and their completely inadequate length/expansion capabilities - corridor connections and BSI couplers wouldn't have been at all stupid!

What CrossCountry's opinion of the units is, I don't know. However XC, Angel Trains, the DFT or whoever should now insist on the smells being sorted; these units may be in service for another 10 or 20 years!!! If a complete strip down and rebuild is neccessary - get on with it.

Just for the record Will, the problem is on the way to being rectified. Virgin have had their 221s during their refit stripped out in the toilet area. It took them a while, but the last 8 or so to go through refit had the opportunity to have their pipes changed, as this was discovered to be the cause. Leaky pipes meant that, well, stuff and smell lingered behind the toilet wall panelling. New pipes, with a clean of the panelling, has resulted in an overwhelming improvement in environment and smell.

Virgin plan to redo the rest of their 221s asap, with the aim of getting it done before summer holidays! For the record, one such SV is 221141. I have no idea I'm afraid as to when XC want to solve their smelly toilet problem, indeed if they do at all.

 

[222001]

Wow, what a discussion going on here! I would class the 222 as a different train to the 220/221 as they are quite different (80% new train apparently).
Anyway HSTs, 220/221s and 222s all have their advantages and dis-advantages over each other.
HSTs are good but I would choose a 222 over a HST because of the following reasons:
> Slam doors - These are a right pain, even for platform staff. They often cause drafts and wind noise due to poor sealings on the drop down window.
> Ride quality - The worst ride quality (in places) over any unit I have been on, they seem to like to bounce in some places on the MML
> Dated interior - This is a problem with EMTs HSTs which have old tatty interiors but this is due to be fixed soon
> Safety - The 220/221/222s are going to be a lot more safe - as they have crumple zones and the such. HSTs do not stand well in some of the disasters we have seen

220/221/222 General Dis-advanges
> Engine noise - This doesn't bother me, I quite like it, some people cannot live with it though
> Body profile - The profile is slimmer which results in a slightly smaller interior
> Interior doors - I've seen many people get trapped but it is quite funny

220/221 Dis-advantages (over the 222)
> Interior - Generally crap design
> Toilet smells - Some of them have made me want to barf

That round it all up really. They all have bad and good points. I don't mind riding on any really though. It's good that people have different opinions on what they like it makes it a lot more interesting!

 

[Daimler]

Dated interior - This is a problem with EMTs HSTs which have old tatty interiors but this is due to be fixed soon

Oh? When's it going to happen? Is there any info on what they're going to do?

 

[Phoenix]

How can Virgin not be at fault, they ordered and laid down the specification for the damn things.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh what a beast, long trains are crap?! Lets just build single units for ever more and sod the passengers!

I meant this as rather than blaming XC if were talking about Virgin etc I defiantly blame them.

 

[222001]

Oh? When's it going to happen? Is there any info on what they're going to do?

Well was meant to happening now according to EMTs on-board magazine from earlier this year, I don't know if anything is happening though. Maybe they are waiting until 222104 is accepted into traffic so they can cope with the loss of a HST set.

 

[SuperVoyager]

> Body profile - The profile is slimmer which results in a slightly smaller interior
> Interior doors - I've seen many people get trapped but it is quite funny
QUOTE]

Well if people would hurry up and get through the bl**dy things, maybe that woulden't happem, and it isn't like it hurts when they shut, i have waited till they close and put my hand in the middle just for fun... doesn't hurt a bit.

I agree is can be quite anyoing though, sometimes walking behind someone through the train, a door closes on the suitcase and they think i deliberatly closed the door right when they go thorugh ithock:

 

[37401]

HST Are Rubbish Because the doors are hard to open and they dont tilt and take to long to accelerate were voyagers accelerate quicker

A.The HST doors are easy to open, your arms are just too small/weak
B.Who cares about tilting?
C. WOW congratulations on working that one out but have you noticiced that the Vomit had a engine under each Unit and the HST does not, plus how would you know about acceleration unless you have been in the cab to work out the 0-60, and not only that the HST has more power the unit has all its power distributed to the other units, the vomit is beter to accelerate because it has nothing to haul the HST has 7 (XC) to 8 (Others) Mk3`s to push-pull.

Also the Vomit is a serious degin flaw as the toilet stuff (whatever its called) is right where the Exhaust is, (hence the bad smell)

As for your "the HST is too long" erm no it isnt it fits fine on the platform, unless your throwing your teddy out the pram because at certain stations the Power car is off the platform so you cant disturb the drive and ask for a Cab ride or a Horn.

A HST is 7 coaches long on the XC (although i think XC have made it 8 now)
and has 542 seats! so youll always find a seat!
a Vomiter has 4-5 if its a Super Vomit and is always packed as you know we had to seat on the luggage racks to get a seat but ive NEVER seen a full HST so there really is no logic behind that remark,"Nah screw it lets all put 1 car 153`s on sod the passengers VTFreak wants the train to be nice and short because everything over 5 cars is too long"

Voyagers are Better they Dont Take Up A Hole Platform Where's A Hst Does,Voyagers have Overhead luggae racks & storage racks at the end of each carrage Hst's Dont

oh dear where do we start with this one

1. HST`s Do have overhead luggage storage maybe if you sat down like a normal passenger instead of doing heads out all the time even i know when to stop

2. ermm have you ever seen a HST? you know that bit behing the engine? yup, LOADS of room there for you stuff much more than you get on a vomit

3. CARRAGE?? dont you mean Unit? a Carrage is what a Mk3 is and i dont see any unless you mean the bit by the cabs wich is now occupied by the Trolley because there is no shop so theres that point gone?

4. no offence but you should at least learn more infomation before you post

also on the too long comment, why what else do you want to have on the platform? what do you want to make room for? the HST comes in at BHM and waits from xx09 till xx12, wow Adrian think of all the things we could of had in that time we could of sent a slow 170 down there to make the HST (which has priority) wait

 

[SuperVoyager]

A.The HST doors are easy to open, your arms are just too small/weak
B.Who cares about tilting?
C. WOW congratulations on working that one out but have you noticiced that the Vomit had a engine under each Unit and the HST does not, plus how would you know about acceleration unless you have been in the cab to work out the 0-60, and not only that the HST has more power the unit has all its power distributed to the other units, the vomit is beter to accelerate because it has nothing to haul the HST has 7 (XC) to 8 (Others) Mk3`s to push-pull.

Also the Vomit is a serious degin flaw as the toilet stuff (whatever its called) is right where the Exhaust is, (hence the bad smell)

As for your "the HST is too long" erm no it isnt it fits fine on the platform, unless your throwing your teddy out the pram because at certain stations the Power car is off the platform so you cant disturb the drive and ask for a Cab ride or a Horn.

A HST is 7 coaches long on the XC (although i think XC have made it 8 now)
and has 542 seats! so youll always find a seat!
a Vomiter has 4-5 if its a Super Vomit and is always packed as you know we had to seat on the luggage racks to get a seat but ive NEVER seen a full HST so there really is no logic behind that remark,"Nah screw it lets all put 1 car 153`s on sod the passengers VTFreak wants the train to be nice and short because everything over 5 cars is too long"

I get on Voyagers all the time and don't smell the toilets (only when someone goes in and takes a huge sh*t.

And yes i have seen a FULL hst with people standing in vestubles with not a seat in site ofen one person takes up a whole table to them slefs

 

[222001]

C. WOW congratulations on working that one out but have you noticiced that the Vomit had a engine under each Unit and the HST does not, plus how would you know about acceleration unless you have been in the cab to work out the 0-60, and not only that the HST has more power the unit has all its power distributed to the other units, the vomit is beter to accelerate because it has nothing to haul the HST has 7 (XC) to 8 (Others) Mk3`s to push-pull.
"

They are basically slightly overpowered. The 220/221/222 are all un-environmentally friendly in my opinion and I think they would not be allowed to build them now due to all those engines! I was on a 5+5 (10 car) Meridian the other day with all engines running and the acceleration was quite emense.

Also we deserved powered doors as we are all lazy! I don't know why HSTs were not built with them really.

 

[asylumxl]

ive NEVER seen a full HST

You should travel on more .

East Midlands Trains - Monday to Friday, On-peak, Bedford/Luton standing room only, isles full of people. The one time I traveled FC, totally empty.

First Great Western - Easilly full on a London to Penzance train, trains always seem to be near full capacity.

National Express East Coast - Plenty of full HSTs! Packed packed packed. Hence the DfT sent the 180s to them (sub leased to Northern). They need more capacity.

The 22x series do have better acceleration, it's just truth.

 

[WillPS]

Just for the record Will, the problem is on the way to being rectified. Virgin have had their 221s during their refit stripped out in the toilet area. It took them a while, but the last 8 or so to go through refit had the opportunity to have their pipes changed, as this was discovered to be the cause. Leaky pipes meant that, well, stuff and smell lingered behind the toilet wall panelling. New pipes, with a clean of the panelling, has resulted in an overwhelming improvement in environment and smell.

Virgin plan to redo the rest of their 221s asap, with the aim of getting it done before summer holidays! For the record, one such SV is 221141. I have no idea I'm afraid as to when XC want to solve their smelly toilet problem, indeed if they do at all.

Well that's disgusting but at least it's getting sorted (at least on Virgin's side).

> Ride quality - The worst ride quality (in places) over any unit I have been on, they seem to like to bounce in some places on the MML

Maybe they're not as silky smooth as a Meridian, but nothing compares to a 142 Pacer on this. Every notch on the track goes straight to your bottom! Fun though

Well was meant to happening now according to EMTs on-board magazine from earlier this year, I don't know if anything is happening though. Maybe they are waiting until 222104 is accepted into traffic so they can cope with the loss of a HST set.

They have like 3 unused sets every day, don't they?

 

[Daimler]

They are basically slightly overpowered. The 220/221/222 are all un-environmentally friendly in my opinion and I think they would not be allowed to build them now due to all those engines! I was on a 5+5 (10 car) Meridian the other day with all engines running and the acceleration was quite emense.

Also we deserved powered doors as we are all lazy! I don't know why HSTs were not built with them really.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the 220s/221s were the most polluting trains on the network (presumably that's CO2 per passenger or something). Not impressive for such recent trains...