Platform Overshoot - Do They Happen Often?

[causton]

Had it once at Apsley on a train that was already about half an hour late heading into London... I got off at Kings Langley, the stop after, which was made normally, to deliver some materials and went back up to the platforms and there was chaos! The incident train had been terminated in platform 9 at Watford Junction at the start of the morning peak and the driver had been taken off the St Albans Abbey line to take the train into Euston to avoid it blocking the platform, I remember this messed up quite a large proportion of the morning peak on the WCML and the Abbey Line.

After that, I have seen some more leniency where drivers can be permitted to carry on to a more suitable point after a FTS or similar incident, rather than stop in an inconvenient location

 

[185143]

There was a case a few months ago where a GWR driver forgot to stop at Pilning, pretty easy to miss considering it's only served twice each way on a saturday!

Not twice each way though is it... #Footbridge4Pilning

 

[whhistle]

The thinking is you need to be able to see where you are going if you set back. Even if it’s only a few feet.

I'm surprised trains don't utilise the cameras so the driver can see where they're going. Not idea but worth a trial period to see if it's worth exploring.
I am aware not all trains have cameras, even more aware that the quality probably isn't that great either. Perhaps including the requirement in new trains / retro-fit where possible would have more advantages than not.

 

[Deafdoggie]

What happens in both the case of D/COp (Driver/Conductor operation) and DOO if the opposite happens and a train stops at a station it doesn't normally stop (such on the Coventry - Birmingham he's booked to not stop at Canley but for some reason - such as misreading his diagram - he does).

That is a point, have trains stopped anywhere they should not have? I have never known this, and I guess it is less embarrassing!

As has been mentioned, we all make mistakes at work. Just that some of us can cover them up easier than others. A driver not stopping at a station is fairly public unfortunately for them.

 

[whhistle]

Would the prevention of accidental platform overshoots and fail to stops be part of the reason that a few TOCs introduced the DAS system?

Will the new signalling system enable automated stopping at stations?

 

[185143]

I've been on a Northern service that stopped somewhere it shouldn't have! (Belle Vue) I bailed out as quick as I could as it was a required shack and the next Northbound was less than 10 mins later

 

[dk1]

That is a point, have trains stopped anywhere they should not have? I have never known this, and I guess it is less embarrassing!

As has been mentioned, we all make mistakes at work. Just that some of us can cover them up easier than others. A driver not stopping at a station is fairly public unfortunately for them.

I stopped at Manningtree with the 17:30 ex-Norwich a couple of years back. It's off pattern & unusual as calls at Stowmarket instead. The guard wasn't expecting it so wasn't ready & the delay was in excess of 3mins so made the log as a 'driver error non-safety'. Control had a laugh at my expense.

 

[Nicholas43]

I'm sure I've read an anecdote supposedly from the days of the Southern Railway. Clockface pattern varies at rush hour, and 17xx departure from (?Waterloo) is not booked to stop at (wherever). Irate passenger doesn't know this and complains. Day 1: reproof to driver: please explain why the 17xx didn't stop at (wherever). Driver: Didn't stop because not booked to do so. Day 2: same reproof and and same response. Day 3: ditto. Day 4: please explain why the 17xx did stop at (wherever). Driver: Because I am sick and tired of these daft memos (or words to that effect).
Anyone recall this story, and more complete details?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I've had it where I was accused of not stopping at Clapham Junction, which I didn't nor did I stop at Surbiton, because they didn't put them on the schedule sheet. I kept the schedule sheet and did two copies of it and forwarded it to my DM at the time with the report and did a copy of that & schedule sheet to the staff reps, just in case it got nasty and rather unsurprisingly I heard nothing!

Sometimes it's down to the TPU/Diagramming section who put it all together's fault when they don't amend the schedule sheet and it has happened on more than a few occasions too, one of my colleagues went non stop to Guildford with a fast, unfortunately he should have stopped at Clapham & Woking, but the sheet said Waterloo, next station listed was Guildford. Nothing they could do about it, he was following what was on the sheet and they're always banging on about our schedule sheets.

 

[TurboFintan]

Has there been instances where the train overshoots (or stop short of) the DOO mirror or screens on platforms and what usually happens next once this occurs?

 

[noddingdonkey]

Driver: Because I am sick and tired of these daft memos (or words to that effect).
Anyone recall this story, and more complete details?

There is a retelling of it in this ancient Usenet thread
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/uk.railway/tO3t8hhtqOM

memos between one of my colleagues and the Area Manager's Office about
20 years ago.

================================================================

(Tuesday)

To Guard xxxx, Orpington


From: Area Manager's Office, Orpington
Subject: 0754 Barnehurst to Blackfriars.
Please explain why the 0754 Barnehurst to Blackfriars failed to stop
at Denmark Hill yesterday.

------------------------------------------------------------------



To: Area Manager's Office, Orpington
From: Guard xxxx, Orpington.
Subject: 0754 Barnehurst to Blackfriars
Sir,
The 0754 Barnehurst to Blackfriars is not booked to call at Denmark
Hill

===================================================================

(Wednesday)

To Guard xxxx, Orpington


From: Area Manager's Office, Orpington
Subject: 0754 Barnehurst to Blackfriars.
Please explain why the 0754 Barnehurst to Blackfriars failed to stop
at Denmark Hill yesterday.

------------------------------------------------------------------



To: Area Manager's Office, Orpington
From: Guard xxxx, Orpington.
Subject: 0754 Barnehurst to Blackfriars
Sir,
As I explained yesterday, the 0754 Barnehurst to Blackfriars is not
booked to call at Denmark Hill

===================================================================

(Friday)

To Guard xxxx, Orpington


From: Area Manager's Office, Orpington
Subject: 0754 Barnehurst to Blackfriars.
Please explain why the 0754 Barnehurst to Blackfriars called at
Denmark Hill yesterday when it is not booked to do so.

-----------------------------------------------------------------



To: Area Manager's Office, Orpington
From: Guard xxxx, Orpington.
Subject: 0754 Barnehurst to Blackfriars
Sir,
I stopped the 0754 Barnehurst to Blackfriars at Denmark Hill in a
misguided effort to stop these memos.

 

[Bromley boy]

Has there been instances where the train overshoots (or stop short of) the DOO mirror or screens on platforms and what usually happens next once this occurs?

This isn’t uncommon. You would always try to avoid stopping short of monitors as some platforms are very tight and this would probably mean the rear set of doors might be hanging out of the back of the platform. If you realise you’re about to stop short of the monitors/stop board you can simply release the brakes or notch some power on (whereas if you go past them you cannot reverse the train - see above).

Going past the monitors is no big deal, so long as you’re still in the platform (!). Depending on train length/platform curvature, you could dispatch by simply looking back from the cab window. If this can’t be done safely the procedure is to call the signaller, key off, walk back and lock the coaches manually, key back on and get permission to continue.

Again, not a big deal in itself, but obviously quite embarrassing and inconvenient as the entire process takes around 10 minutes.

 

[Ianno87]

That is a point, have trains stopped anywhere they should not have? I have never known this, and I guess it is less embarrassing!

As has been mentioned, we all make mistakes at work. Just that some of us can cover them up easier than others. A driver not stopping at a station is fairly public unfortunately for them.

I've had a stop-when-not-booked-to-stop at Hampton-in-Arden. I think the conductor was on the ball and quickly gave the driver two buzzes without releasing the doors.

 

[bramling]

Has there been instances where the train overshoots (or stop short of) the DOO mirror or screens on platforms and what usually happens next once this occurs?

Quite common. On EMUs it can happen if the brakes die at the last minute, which isn't uncommon. On an EMU fitted with rheostatic or regenerative braking this isn't effective below around 10 mph so the train will change to conventional braking. In theory this transition should be handled by train with no perceptible variation in handling, however reality can sometimes be different. Normally the driver will get used to the train, but one can still have a train behaving perfectly for multiple stops then goes tits up on a one-off.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Quite common. On EMUs it can happen if the brakes die at the last minute, which isn't uncommon. On an EMU fitted with rheostatic or regenerative braking this isn't effective below around 10 mph so the train will change to conventional braking. In theory this transition should be handled by train with no perceptible variation in handling, however reality can sometimes be different. Normally the driver will get used to the train, but one can still have a train behaving perfectly for multiple stops then goes tits up on a one-off.

Nah, that doesn't happen. We all know that brake fade doesn't happen or exist. We have to be able to blame the driver for anything & everything.

 

[TurboFintan]

This isn’t uncommon. You would always try to avoid stopping short of monitors as some platforms are very tight and this would probably mean the rear set of doors might be hanging out of the back of the platform. If you realise you’re about to stop short of the monitors/stop board you can simply release the brakes or notch some power on (whereas if you go past them you cannot reverse the train - see above).

Going past the monitors is no big deal, so long as you’re still in the platform (!). Depending on train length/platform curvature, you could dispatch by simply looking back from the cab window. If this can’t be done safely the procedure is to call the signaller, key off, walk back and lock the coaches manually, key back on and get permission to continue.

Again, not a big deal in itself, but obviously quite embarrassing and inconvenient as the entire process takes around 10 minutes.

Thanks, interesting regarding the last points. Just to add to my question: if you were operating say, a 4-car unit, but you missed the 4-car stop marker and the DOO mirror, would you stop at the next one (e.g. 8-car) if possible? I recall seeing a 3-car class 313 stopping at a 6-car stop marker.

 

[gsnedders]

I'm surprised trains don't utilise the cameras so the driver can see where they're going. Not idea but worth a trial period to see if it's worth exploring.
I am aware not all trains have cameras, even more aware that the quality probably isn't that great either. Perhaps including the requirement in new trains / retro-fit where possible would have more advantages than not.

The problem with doing this for trains that are fitted with cameras is that they then go from being monitoring equipment to being safety-critical operation equipment, with all the associated extra requirements on reliability imposed. You'd have to be able to near guarantee the camera would never fail during a propelling move, for example.

 

[Bromley boy]

Thanks, interesting regarding the last points. Just to add to my question: if you were operating say, a 4-car unit, but you missed the 4-car stop marker and the DOO mirror, would you stop at the next one (e.g. 8-car) if possible? I recall seeing a 3-car class 313 stopping at a 6-car stop marker.

No worries.

Yes indeed. Standard practice (at my TOC at least) is that, if you miss a set of monitors, you simply proceed to the next ones available.

Driving a four car, stopping at a straightish platform, it’s usually just as easy (and probably safer!) to look back and use the mk 1 eyeball.

 

[gsnedders]

No worries.

Yes indeed. Standard practice (at my TOC at least) is that, if you miss a set of monitors, you simply proceed to the next ones available.

If you were driving a four car on a straightish platform it’s usually just as easy (and probably safer!) to look back and use the mk 1 eyeball.

An extreme example is Charing Cross (Glasgow), where the three-car monitors on the westbound line were for a long time out-of-use due to a failure AIUI, and have now simply been removed, everything now stopping at the platform end.

 

[Bromley boy]

An extreme example is Charing Cross (Glasgow), where the three-car monitors on the westbound line were for a long time out-of-use due to a failure AIUI, and have now simply been removed, everything now stopping at the platform end.

Stopping all formations at the same point on all platforms (ie universal “S” car marks) has much to recommend it, in my view.

It would remove the risk of stop-short-door-release incidents, at a stroke.

 

[MotCO]

I can recall two nonstop incidents. One where the train from Charing Cross did not stop at Chelsfield, but went on to Sevenoaks, a few stations further down the line. What struck me was why the passenegers were not put on a train back to Chelsfield, even if it meant making a change to the stopping schedule of a train; instead, taxis were ordered for a number of passengers.

The other example is 'the other way round'. I was on the platform at St Margarets waiting for the Kingston loop train, when the train went straight through; I had to wait 30 minutes in the cold for the next train!

 

[alistairlees]

In the 1980s (I know, I know) I was on a Trans Pennine loco-hauled service (probably a Scarborough - Liverpool Lime Street, though I can't remember), the driver of which forgot to stop at Dewsbury (which can be approached quite fast). He locked the brakes on and we simply slid straight through Dewsbury. Bear in mind this is a 45 and 8 coaches. The train stopped with just the BG in the platform as I remember (though that bit could be wrong - it would mean the stock was in reverse formation, though that did happen). After a few seconds, the train reversed (pretty rapidly) into the station, stopping with all coaches in the platform. People then got on and off as usual, and the journey continued as normal after that. We were quite entertained on the train - it wasn't often an emergency stop happened. Not sure what the people on the platform made of it. Probably about 1986. Maybe it's just as well things have improved!

 

[Controller1701]

I'm sure I've read an anecdote supposedly from the days of the Southern Railway. Clockface pattern varies at rush hour, and 17xx departure from (?Waterloo) is not booked to stop at (wherever). Irate passenger doesn't know this and complains. Day 1: reproof to driver: please explain why the 17xx didn't stop at (wherever). Driver: Didn't stop because not booked to do so. Day 2: same reproof and and same response. Day 3: ditto. Day 4: please explain why the 17xx did stop at (wherever). Driver: Because I am sick and tired of these daft memos (or words to that effect).
Anyone recall this story, and more complete details?

i have also heard a version where the station is St Johns, which would fit with the Waterloo (East) thought as Denmark Hill was not reachable until the Linford Street Curve was commissioned.

 

[bramling]

Nah, that doesn't happen. We all know that brake fade doesn't happen or exist. We have to be able to blame the driver for anything & everything.

That's the height of cynicism.

(But fully accurate!).

 

[Nicholas43]

There is a retelling of it in this ancient Usenet thread

I have also heard a version where the station is St Johns, which would fit with the Waterloo (East) thought as Denmark Hill was not reachable until the Linford Street Curve was commissioned.

Many thanks. I see I had forgotten most of the facts, including the detail that it was the Guard, not the driver, who was held responsible.

 

[GadgetMan]

Seem to be a lot of drivers on here who think that failing to stop is just one of those things. And there was me thinking that stopping in the right places was the single most important part of the job.

I've had one overrun in over 40,000 stops. I forgot I was booked to stop there until I saw passengers on platform. I'm still annoyed by that one screw up, but that isn't a bad stat in my opinion. Oh and as mentioned by others, it sits on my file forever now and will be taken into account should I make any further errors.

 

[30907]

i have also heard a version where the station is St Johns, which would fit with the Waterloo (East) thought as Denmark Hill was not reachable until the Linford Street Curve was commissioned.

The Denmark Hill version quoted on the linked thread is an Up to Blackfriars.
I daresay (many?) other versions of the story exist, but DMK to WAT and vv first happened in late August 2017 and wasn't a public stop.

 

[Billy A]

No worries.

Yes indeed. Standard practice (at my TOC at least) is that, if you miss a set of monitors, you simply proceed to the next ones available.

Driving a four car, stopping at a straightish platform, it’s usually just as easy (and probably safer!) to look back and use the mk 1 eyeball.

That reminds me. I was in Stockholm recently and while at an underground station I noticed that the platform monitors were all facing the direction of travel and therefore not visible from the cab. The procedure was that on arrival the driver stepped out, looked along the train and then up at the monitors and when happy ducked back into the cab before heading on his/her way.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I can recall two nonstop incidents. One where the train from Charing Cross did not stop at Chelsfield, but went on to Sevenoaks, a few stations further down the line. What struck me was why the passenegers were not put on a train back to Chelsfield, even if it meant making a change to the stopping schedule of a train; instead, taxis were ordered for a number of passengers.

The other example is 'the other way round'. I was on the platform at St Margarets waiting for the Kingston loop train, when the train went straight through; I had to wait 30 minutes in the cold for the next train!

That reminds me. I was in Stockholm recently and while at an underground station I noticed that the platform monitors were all facing the direction of travel and therefore not visible from the cab. The procedure was that on arrival the driver stepped out, looked along the train and then up at the monitors and when happy ducked back into the cab before heading on his/her way.

And in the time it takes for them to turnaround and walk back to the cab press the door buttons someone could have done something like put a can in the doors or fallen etc. You're just trying to turn this into another DOO debate.

 

[Billy A]

And in the time it takes for them to turnaround and walk back to the cab press the door buttons someone could have done something like put a can in the doors or fallen etc. You're just trying to turn this into another DOO debate.

Nope, I was just commenting that somebody else obviously agrees with your view that it's safer to use the Mk1 eyeball.