Night shift fatigue (RAIB report)

[Sunset route]

Aren't you legally required to have a proper break with no work related distractions?

The short answer is no as they don’t regard small one person signalboxes busy enough to justify them. But that is a one size fits all when it clearly doesn’t. Breaks are to be provided at locations where multiple panels or workstations are located, as per our National Rostaring Principles.

 

[Llanigraham]

Aren't you legally required to have a proper break with no work related distractions?

Not on the railway.
And how would you do it in single manned rural boxes? Stop the trains?

 

[74A]

Fatigue is going to be a hot topic over next few months with various raib reports suggesting fatigue as a contributing factor.

Think many tocs are going to have to look again at the old 12hr vs 8hr debates. I think eights are going to be back in favour with obvious implications on pay and staff numbers.

What implications ? If your total working week is the same it doesn't take any more staff to have 8 hour days or 12 hour days. However staff will lose rest days which is one of the reasons they want to work 12 hour days in the first place.

 

[alxndr]

What implications ? If your total working week is the same it doesn't take any more staff to have 8 hour days or 12 hour days. However staff will lose rest days which is one of the reasons they want to work 12 hour days in the first place.

Depending on contract conditions it can. Not sure if TOCs have anything similar but NR have limits on the number of nights and weekend shifts that can be rostered a year, which can lead to situations where it may be possible to only need 5 teams if working 12hr shifts but an extra 2 in order to make 8hr shifts possible without breaching the contract.

 

[Llanigraham]

What implications ? If your total working week is the same it doesn't take any more staff to have 8 hour days or 12 hour days. However staff will lose rest days which is one of the reasons they want to work 12 hour days in the first place.

That certainly isn't the only reason.
How about the one third extra journeys required to attend?
How about the journeys that may now fall at more awkward times, such as rush hour?

 

[bramling]

Not on the railway.
And how would you do it in single manned rural boxes? Stop the trains?

It's quite feasible to have a "cover" person rostered, potentially travelling from one box to another to provide a break. Obviously this is highly expensive, especially nowadays where the distances between boxes can be considerable.

Plus, one can guarantee that if such cover was provided, it probably wouldn't take too long before the roster was carved up to give additional days off...

 

[Sunset route]

It's quite feasible to have a "cover" person rostered, potentially travelling from one box to another to provide a break. Obviously this is highly expensive, especially nowadays where the distances between boxes can be considerable.

Plus, one can guarantee that if such cover was provided, it probably wouldn't take too long before the roster was carved up to give additional days off...

As you said the main problem is cost, then distance between locations.

But your final point, I can’t see how a stand alone meal relief(s) can be used to provide additional rest days at say four locations that they are employed to give meal/rest breaks at. How would you get that passed the ergonomics and fatigue indexes and which side of the staff/management interface would raise it for consultation to amend job distrption.

In theory after fighting so hard to actually get recognised meal breaks, I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t be the staff side H&S or LDC reps and apart for, a very few select locations (if they still remain) the rest day relief signalman position was done away with when 1994 agreement came into being, so I can’t see NR attempting to bring it back either.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Not on the railway.
And how would you do it in single manned rural boxes? Stop the trains?

Does the railway have special exemptions to employment law then?

 

[Mojo]

But your final point, I can’t see how a stand alone meal relief(s) can be used to provide additional rest days at say four locations that they are employed to give meal/rest breaks at. How would you get that passed the ergonomics and fatigue indexes and which side of the staff/management interface would raise it for consultation to amend job distrption.

I suspect he was referring to local staff devising a "carve up" of the roster, for instance everyone in the team agreeing not to come in when they are down to cover the meal relief duty and everyone working the 'core' shifts doing the full duty and not kicking up a fuss about not getting a meal relief.

 

[Llanigraham]

Does the railway have special exemptions to employment law then?

Obviously it does!

 

[bramling]

I suspect he was referring to local staff devising a "carve up" of the roster, for instance everyone in the team agreeing not to come in when they are down to cover the meal relief duty and everyone working the 'core' shifts doing the full duty and not kicking up a fuss about not getting a meal relief.

Yep that's exactly what I meant, or some variation of same.

 

[Mojo]

Does the railway have special exemptions to employment law then?

Obviously it does!

Rail transport is explicitly exempt from certain parts of the Working Time Regulations alongside certain other sectors such as air, police, military, work at sea and more. Further, any sector can also be exempted if there is a collective agreement in place between management and recognised trade unions.

 

[Sunset route]

I suspect he was referring to local staff devising a "carve up" of the roster, for instance everyone in the team agreeing not to come in when they are down to cover the meal relief duty and everyone working the 'core' shifts doing the full duty and not kicking up a fuss about not getting a meal relief.

Yep that's exactly what I meant, or some variation of same.

Ok I can see where your coming from, but staff on the ground are not in a position to alter agreements at a whim, even if they wanted to. That’s the one good thing about the unions especially the local reps and area reps is that they ensure all national, area and more importantly local agreements are adhered to by all sides.

If you’ve gone through a long slog to improve conditions especially breaks or better rosters (because that’s what the staff have been after) then your not going to throw it away just because the newbie for instance doesn’t like it.

 

[Antman]

It's quite feasible to have a "cover" person rostered, potentially travelling from one box to another to provide a break. Obviously this is highly expensive, especially nowadays where the distances between boxes can be considerable.

Plus, one can guarantee that if such cover was provided, it probably wouldn't take too long before the roster was carved up to give additional days off...

That's what I was going to suggest having somebody in a car going around various boxes relieving the signalman for an hour and cost really shouldn't come into it. I'm amazed it isn't mandatory in todays age of H&S!

 

[Llanigraham]

Some of the comments here suggest that some people have no idea how single manned rural signal boxes work!

Just on my old line, if this "relief" started at 1000 at the first Box he would not arrive at the last until around 1530!
1000 - 1100
drive
1130 - 1230
drive
1300 - 1400
drive
1430 - 1530
And that is only 4 Boxes, so not all of them.

And when does the "relief" get their lunch?

Great when we start work at 0600!

And the relief would have to be paid at the grade of the highest Box, so if one Box of the 4 is a Gr4 and the rest Gr2 it starts getting more expensive.
Plus there would need to be a relief for the relief.

And I haven't even started on the training!

Plus what about night shifts?
Or breakfast breaks?
Or tea time breaks?

 

[bramling]

Some of the comments here suggest that some people have no idea how single manned rural signal boxes work!

Just on my old line, if this "relief" started at 1000 at the first Box he would not arrive at the last until around 1530!
1000 - 1100
drive
1130 - 1230
drive
1300 - 1400
drive
1430 - 1530
And that is only 4 Boxes, so not all of them.

And when does the "relief" get their lunch?

Great when we start work at 0600!

And the relief would have to be paid at the grade of the highest Box, so if one Box of the 4 is a Gr4 and the rest Gr2 it starts getting more expensive.
Plus there would need to be a relief for the relief.

And I haven't even started on the training!

Plus what about night shifts?
Or breakfast breaks?
Or tea time breaks?

I did say it would be difficult and expensive, but it’s certainly not impossible to implement if it *had* to be done. I agree this would mean you may well be coming close to doubling the numbers at some locations.

 

[FordFocus]

Fatigue is going to be a hot topic over next few months with various raib reports suggesting fatigue as a contributing factor.

Think many tocs are going to have to look again at the old 12hr vs 8hr debates. I think eights are going to be back in favour with obvious implications on pay and staff numbers.

Most TOCs I know have a variable working day between 6-10 hours long. Turns above that time band are usually involving freight. There are one or two FOCs think road driving doesn't really contribute to overall fatigue as it's "different"......

Fatigue problems have been bubbling up for a while but unless there is a serious accident similar to Clapham (god forbid), I don't think TOCs will do anything. It would involve in reducing the max hours, possibility of splitting PNBs with longer breaks and each and a maximum hours worked per week. Too costly.

So instead there will be "working groups" between "industry partners" with very little input from the people effected by such shifts. A RED DVD will be available Spring 2018 to promote ways of helping reduce fatigue instead and a colour leaflet available from local managers.

 

[Antman]

Some of the comments here suggest that some people have no idea how single manned rural signal boxes work!

Just on my old line, if this "relief" started at 1000 at the first Box he would not arrive at the last until around 1530!
1000 - 1100
drive
1130 - 1230
drive
1300 - 1400
drive
1430 - 1530
And that is only 4 Boxes, so not all of them.

And when does the "relief" get their lunch?

Great when we start work at 0600!

And the relief would have to be paid at the grade of the highest Box, so if one Box of the 4 is a Gr4 and the rest Gr2 it starts getting more expensive.
Plus there would need to be a relief for the relief.

And I haven't even started on the training!

Plus what about night shifts?
Or breakfast breaks?
Or tea time breaks?

It doesn't sound like an insurmountable problem and I'm astounded that somebody can be doing a safety critical job for 12 hours without a break.

 

[Sunset route]

It doesn't sound like an insurmountable problem and I'm astounded that somebody can be doing a safety critical job for 12 hours without a break.

Welcome to the world of signalling in the 21st Century. I only know of one single manned signalbox that now has meal/rest relief and that only after they forced a grievance to get an ergonomics study for a workload assessment and won in the end. The fact of the matter as it stands, single manned signal boxes are not entitled to any defined rest periods for either meal or toilet breaks regardless of length of duty, number of shifts worked, how busy they are or how complex the area of control is. Now whether it stays that way will depend if there is a new push on fatigue backed up by some serious tax payers money to pay for the extra staff nation wide. If not then you will still have safety critical staff working up to 4 12hrs shifts on their base roster wothout a break.

At the end of the day these are sociopolitical decisions that would need to be taken so far up the food chain that they would be outside the railway industry to effect the changes needed to fight fatigue within the industry.

 

[Tooktook]

Re above I know little of the signalling world. But as with a lot of things maybe it will take a serious incident before changes occur. It does seem that the railway can take more of a reactive approach to matters, in a lessons learned type format.

Working in a rail depot myself I find the approach to fatigue quite contradictory. We are constantly sold the concept of being fit and rested for duty. I understand the importance of this. But then the rosters in a 24/7 shift cycle have constructed a pattern that make it a near impossibility. We can go from a week of nights finishing on a Sunday morning. The rest of the Sunday counts as a rest day. Then we are back in Monday. Whilst the break between shifts is more than 24 hours. In one day you've had to go from night sleeping pattern to day. And maintain alertness and be rested for duty. Quite difficult when you have had two hours sleep.

 

[lonogrol]

Ok I can see where your coming from, but staff on the ground are not in a position to alter agreements at a whim, even if they wanted to. That’s the one good thing about the unions especially the local reps and area reps is that they ensure all national, area and more importantly local agreements are adhered to by all sides.

If you’ve gone through a long slog to improve conditions especially breaks or better rosters (because that’s what the staff have been after) then your not going to throw it away just because the newbie for instance doesn’t like it.

Not providing much detail for obvious reasons ... but everywhere I have worked people are more than happy to ignore agreements about not taking grub etc. as it benefits everyone in the team. I can not imagine any T.U. REP. intervening with local arrangements regarding fiddles ... if one did they would be told where to go ...

It most certaintly isn't the "newbie" not liking it ... many of these are long standing agreements put together by the oldies and any new member of staff is told "this is how we work here" and expected to lump it or soon find themselves removed from the team.

 

[185]

Won't get a suntan in my job. I'm permanent lates, following a long fight with my manager.

Our shifts were all over the place, with no real pattern - earlies left me utterly shattered, stumbling around grunting at passengers.

Now feel so much more awake, and much less sickness on the roster as a result of a separate link of staff. Plus not seen a manager in months.

 

[Minilad]

Saturday night I finish at 2205. I will get home around 2300 on Saturday night. I am off Sunday and then start at 0308 Monday morning. My alarm will be set for 01.45. so I will have around 26 hours or so "off". These are the killers in my opinion. The 3 am starts I can cope with as they are generally speaking not bad in terms of length and work content. I would certainly rather do them than 6am starts that may be close to 10 hours finishing as the rush hour starts meaning a battle to get home. But the combination of late finish, day "off", and early start really do mess you up

 

[Antman]

Re above I know little of the signalling world. But as with a lot of things maybe it will take a serious incident before changes occur. It does seem that the railway can take more of a reactive approach to matters, in a lessons learned type format.

Working in a rail depot myself I find the approach to fatigue quite contradictory. We are constantly sold the concept of being fit and rested for duty. I understand the importance of this. But then the rosters in a 24/7 shift cycle have constructed a pattern that make it a near impossibility. We can go from a week of nights finishing on a Sunday morning. The rest of the Sunday counts as a rest day. Then we are back in Monday. Whilst the break between shifts is more than 24 hours. In one day you've had to go from night sleeping pattern to day. And maintain alertness and be rested for duty. Quite difficult when you have had two hours sleep.

Yes it does seem that it's going to take a serious incident to change some of these practices. Shouldn't any 24 hour operations, railway or otherwise, be covered by 3x8 hour shifts rather than 2x12 hour shifts? And shouldn't staff as far as possible be on the same shift everyday, earlys lates or nights?

 

[Llanigraham]

Yes it does seem that it's going to take a serious incident to change some of these practices. Shouldn't any 24 hour operations, railway or otherwise, be covered by 3x8 hour shifts rather than 2x12 hour shifts? And shouldn't staff as far as possible be on the same shift everyday, earlys lates or nights?

Have you ever worked shifts?
Are you as a passenger willing to pay to pay the extra for covering this change?
And sorry, but your last question is preposterous! Shifts of those 3 periods are worked across many other employments, not just the railway.

 

[Antman]

Have you ever worked shifts?
Are you as a passenger willing to pay to pay the extra for covering this change?
And sorry, but your last question is preposterous! Shifts of those 3 periods are worked across many other employments, not just the railway.

Yes I have worked shifts and it's not much fun. Is there a price on safety? Why are 3 shifts preposterous, I know of 24 hour warehouses that operate that way.

 

[Llanigraham]

I didn't say 3 shifts was preposterous, I suggested that people only working one of those 3 is such.

And are you willing to pay the extra for covering the change?

 

[Antman]

I didn't say 3 shifts was preposterous, I suggested that people only working one of those 3 is such.

And are you willing to pay the extra for covering the change?

I'm afraid I don't understand you point.

 

[Llanigraham]

I suggest that expecting staff to only work (say) earlies is preposterous.

And to repeat, are you as a passenger willing to pay the extra costs that will be involved?

Having spoken to one of my ex-colleagues about this he said that it would require a large pay increase for him to consider moving from 12's to 8's. I know that when it was suggested on our line a few people said they would consider packing it in if it was introduced. In my case it would have increased my travel costs by a third!

 

[Antman]

I suggest that expecting staff to only work (say) earlies is preposterous.

And to repeat, are you as a passenger willing to pay the extra costs that will be involved?

Having spoken to one of my ex-colleagues about this he said that it would require a large pay increase for him to consider moving from 12's to 8's. I know that when it was suggested on our line a few people said they would consider packing it in if it was introduced. In my case it would have increased my travel costs by a third!

Why would working only earlies be preposterous? It's what happens in many other industries.

What extra costs would be involved? And what price safety?

You seem to be confirming what many of us suspected that staff are happy to comply with the excessive hours for the financial reward? Personally I think a 40 hour week, with occasional voluntary overtime, should be enough for anybody.