Extending the XC franchise

[Mojo]

at the moment the only crosscountry services to south wales are the hourly Cardiff - Nottingahm and the daily train from Cardiff - Bristol TM -Birmingham - Manchester (This service used to operate to newcastle until this year and its stupid to run it to manchester when there is already an hourly train to manchester, so i think this need to run to newcastle like it used to)

The reason for this running to Manchester is because it forms the xx00 service from Temple Meads, which always runs on the Manchester route. It would be difficult to re-time it as it runs in lieu of a local FGW service providing capacity for commuters starting at 8am from Cardiff and other local stations to Temple Meads.

 

[tbtc]

i have read a plan to divert the Milford Haven - Cardiff - Manchester service via the swansea district line with a new station at Morriston and have an hourly service from Swansea - Nottingham which will also service pyle with the swanline also increased to run hourly but will no longer serve pyle giving that service a decrease in journey times by around 5/6 minutes

Excuse my local ignorance, but are you saying that the current Manchester - Cardiff - Swansea - Carmarthen (and beyond) service would bypass the current Swansea station?

As for the current Cardiff - Birmingham service, if stock were available, I'd extend the existing Nottingham - Birmingham service to Cheltenham, then on to Cardiff via local stations, to replace the ATW service. This would mean double the Birmingham - Cardiff service, and mean Cheltenham gets four trains an hour to Birmingham. So, one train would go Nottingham - Birmigham - Cheltenham - Cardiff (fast), returning slow to Cheltenham and on to Nottingham (and vice versa). Would probably only need one more unit (taking over the existing ATW DMU too), if a path could be found on the Selley Oak line, and save conflicting movements at Cheltenham, where this service curently reverses.

 

[anthony263]

Excuse my local ignorance, but are you saying that the current Manchester - Cardiff - Swansea - Carmarthen (and beyond) service would bypass the current Swansea station?

As for the current Cardiff - Birmingham service, if stock were available, I'd extend the existing Nottingham - Birmingham service to Cheltenham, then on to Cardiff via local stations, to replace the ATW service. This would mean double the Birmingham - Cardiff service, and mean Cheltenham gets four trains an hour to Birmingham. So, one train would go Nottingham - Birmigham - Cheltenham - Cardiff (fast), returning slow to Cheltenham and on to Nottingham (and vice versa). Would probably only need one more unit (taking over the existing ATW DMU too), if a path could be found on the Selley Oak line, and save conflicting movements at Cheltenham, where this service curently reverses.

yes there was a plan to do this as it could cut journey times from west wales to cardiff by as much as 20 minutes and since a station was supposed to be built at morriston this could cut congestion and the train would be very well used.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The reason for this running to Manchester is because it forms the xx00 service from Temple Meads, which always runs on the Manchester route. It would be difficult to re-time it as it runs in lieu of a local FGW service providing capacity for commuters starting at 8am from Cardiff and other local stations to Temple Meads.

It used to be the other was around i am sure a few months ago trains to manchester would depart bristol temple meads at 30 minutes past the hour and newcastle trains etc departing at 00 minutes past the hour now for some reason they have changed it around

 

[Waverley125]

yes, but when the MML is electrified the 222s will all be freed up. I also reckon electrification will see a lot more new rolling stock, and don't reckon that it'll be too long before the XC route is electrified down to Exeter and Plymouth. At which point, XC services will be cut back at plymouth an EMUs used.

I think, actually, the whole idea of 'cross country' services is misleading. These aren't little lines across huge swathes of countryside. Just look at what is considered 'cross country' or similar.

Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-Newcaste/Hull/Middlesborough

Cambridge-Peterborough-Leicester-Birmingham

Norwich-Peterborough-Nottingham-Sheffield-Manchester-Liverpool

Nottingham-Derby-Birmingham-Gloucester-Bristol-Cardiff


It would actually be far more accurate to refer to these as 'intercity' services, and treat them as main lines. It seems to me that the idea of a 'main line' that doesn't serve london doesn't exist.

 

[MCR247]

I think, actually, the whole idea of 'cross country' services is misleading. These aren't little lines across huge swathes of countryside. Just look at what is considered 'cross country' or similar.

No its not really its more to do they operate trains between Aberdeen & Penzance, so they run services across the country as such

 

[43106]

One thought has come to mind - linking Perth and Stirling to the WCML. This used to happen years ago when the London - Inverness service (called "The Clansman") was an electric (usually an 87) that went up the WCML via Birmingham to Motherwell. The 87 was taken off and a 40 or 47 was put on which then went to Inverness via Coatbridge, Cumbernauld, Stirling and Perth. Later on, it went via Edinburgh and Falkirk, instead of Motherwell, Coatbridge and Cumbernauld. When the ECML was electrified up to Edinburgh, the Clansman vanished and was replaced with The Highland Cheiftain, which runs to the present day.
I reckon there is a case to have a train every 6 hours between Birmingham and Perth, with daily extensions to Inverness (via Aviemore) and Aberdeen (via Dundee).

 

[WillPS]

yes, but when the MML is electrified the 222s will all be freed up. I also reckon electrification will see a lot more new rolling stock, and don't reckon that it'll be too long before the XC route is electrified down to Exeter and Plymouth. At which point, XC services will be cut back at plymouth an EMUs used.

I think, actually, the whole idea of 'cross country' services is misleading. These aren't little lines across huge swathes of countryside. Just look at what is considered 'cross country' or similar.

Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-Newcaste/Hull/Middlesborough

Cambridge-Peterborough-Leicester-Birmingham

Norwich-Peterborough-Nottingham-Sheffield-Manchester-Liverpool

Nottingham-Derby-Birmingham-Gloucester-Bristol-Cardiff


It would actually be far more accurate to refer to these as 'intercity' services, and treat them as main lines. It seems to me that the idea of a 'main line' that doesn't serve london doesn't exist.

How does Liverpool (on the West Coast) to Norwich (close to the East Coast) not cross the country?!

 

[Waverley125]

no, i mean it suggests (to me) 'going across country'. Intercity would be far more accurate in terms of describing the lines. It would be a lot more accurate to describe Norwich-Peterborough, Grantham-Nottingham-Chesterfield, Sheffield-Manchester, The TP route and Peterborough-Leicester-Birmingham as 'secondary main lines' IMO. ATM it seems the idea of a 'main line' that does not serve London does not exist.

 

[MCR247]

no, i mean it suggests (to me) 'going across country'. Intercity would be far more accurate in terms of describing the lines. It would be a lot more accurate to describe Norwich-Peterborough, Grantham-Nottingham-Chesterfield, Sheffield-Manchester, The TP route and Peterborough-Leicester-Birmingham as 'secondary main lines' IMO. ATM it seems the idea of a 'main line' that does not serve London does not exist.

well i disagree they go across the country! I would hardly call it a 'main line', because it simply isnt one! a main line is the MML, WCML, EMCL & GWML, yes they all serve london, but because there is demand. There is a line, between what liverpool - norwich is and intercity main lines, although where that line is is debatable, liverpool to norwcih, dosent need a 8/9 car HST, and London to edinburgh need more than 2x158s!

 

[WillPS]

Exactly, I'd say Main Line is a line specifically built to link cities - in the UK they all end up in London (I think?). Cross Country services are those which have been added on to the existing network as demanded.

InterCity is a term which could be used to describe both Cross Country and Main Line services.

 

[dojo]

For anyone who thinks XC is fine as it is, please move to Liverpool and try to get anywhere south of Birmingham that isn't on the WCML without changing.

I don't remember who said it, but alternating the Bournemouth services to go between Manchester and Lime Street is a sweet idea, and the sooner XC realise that they're missing out on a huge chunk of scouse custom, the better. There are flights starting from JLA to Southampton in July, and I hope to God they do well - just so that Arriva can take the lead and sort out the laughable missed opportunity of a Liverpool to anywhere service.

rant over.

 

[Waverley125]

Liverpool-Manchester is a main line. Leeds-Manchester etc.

 

[tbtc]

I don't remember who said it, but alternating the Bournemouth services to go between Manchester and Lime Street is a sweet idea,

Manchester needs it's half hourly service to Birmingham (the same level of service Liverpool gets). Diverting some Manchester trains to Liverpool instead would just cause capacity problems and leave a lopsided timetable (with gaps etc).

 

[Mojo]

Manchester needs it's half hourly service to Birmingham (the same level of service Liverpool gets). Diverting some Manchester trains to Liverpool instead would just cause capacity problems and leave a lopsided timetable (with gaps etc).

I agree. It's not possible to run trains to everywhere that used to be part of XC. Bournemouth to Liverpool it's possible to change at Wolverhampton or Stafford to avoid New Street. Bournemouth to the North East change at Leamington Spa.

 

[jopsuk]

In my opinion bus companys should keep to busses and leave the rail industry alone! bring back the good old GNER,

You'd rather a bankrupt company whose core business is moving goods around in containers ran passenger trains than a public transport company?

 

[Pumbaa]

Manchester needs it's half hourly service to Birmingham (the same level of service Liverpool gets). Diverting some Manchester trains to Liverpool instead would just cause capacity problems and leave a lopsided timetable (with gaps etc).

But to that extent, LM should, in my opinion, have the hourly Brum - Manchester service be bi-hourly, alternating between Manchester - Brum and Liverpool - Brum. This would then allow XC to alternate between Liverpool and Manchester also, which not only puts Liverpool back on the XC map but provides alternative services Brum - Mancunia.

 

[Mojo]

But to that extent, LM should, in my opinion, have the hourly Brum - Manchester service be bi-hourly, alternating between Manchester - Brum and Liverpool - Brum. This would then allow XC to alternate between Liverpool and Manchester also, which not only puts Liverpool back on the XC map but provides alternative services Brum - Mancunia.

Good idea, I wonder how it'd work in practice.

Bear in mind that there is no such thing as a Birmingham to Manchester service any more (except at the edge of service or during works), and that the halfhourly BHM-MAN service is made up of the Bristol and Bournemouth routes.

If you wanted to put it together then you'd have to have:

(taking 1tph from BHM-LIV route)

Hour 1: BMH - LIV; BRI - MAN; BHM - MAN
Hour 2: BMH - MAN; BRI - MAN; BHM - LIV

This would keep Bristol connected hourly to Manchester, as well as halfhourly BHM - MAN and BHM - LIV services, obviously at a loss to BMH - MAN pax.

 

[tbtc]

But to that extent, LM should, in my opinion, have the hourly Brum - Manchester service be bi-hourly, alternating between Manchester - Brum and Liverpool - Brum. This would then allow XC to alternate between Liverpool and Manchester also, which not only puts Liverpool back on the XC map but provides alternative services Brum - Mancunia.

I can see some logic in diverting the "fast" Birmingham - Liverpool service to Manchester and giving Liverpool one of the hourly XC services instead. The trouble is, this would then mean Manchester losing it's service to either Cheltenham/ Bristol, or to Oxford/ Reading/ South Coast. Liverpool would gain a service to one of these, but there'd still be complaints that Liverpool still didn't have a link to the other one.

The next issue is that each TOC running an hourly service to Liverpool *and* Manchester (rather than LM running half hourly to one, and XC running half to the other) would complicate things in terms of route learning/ stock/ staffing/ placing journeys etc.

It looks like a zero sum game, where you can only benefit Liverpool by disrupting Manchester's service by a similar amount.

 

[dojo]

Lol, trust me to forget about what Manchester is losing when Liverpool gains. I like Pumbaa's idea, but perhaps the idea of XC in Liverpool is just quite unrealistic. Who was it that ran the Liverpool to Portsmouth service? And when/why did it stop? Low pax?

 

[The Planner]

Pompey Liverpools were 2 car 158s if I recall ??

 

[Mojo]

I don't have a timetable for just after Operation Princess/Voyagerisation of the XC network but I used to travel occasionally from Banbury to Portsmouth direct when I wanted to avoid London and they were Voyagers - I can't remember what route they were part of, but I've been to Portsmouth on both 47s and HSTs.

 

[tbtc]

Pompey Liverpools were 2 car 158s if I recall ??

Yeah, a nice "niche" service alongside the longer Cross Country services in BR days - when there were 158s doing Scotland - Manchester too. From memory, there were even services reversing in Liverpool (Glasgow - Preston - Wigan - Liverpool - Crewe - Birmingham - South Coast).

I think that's part of Liverpool's problem when it comes to longer distance services like these - a least Manchester's layout allowed "through" Birmingham - Manchester - Glasgow services.

The other problem is that there's very few long exisitng distance services going south from Birmingham (other than the ones to London and the ones from existing destinations north of Birmingham). There's nothing "obvious" to tag a Liverpool service on to (without taking a service away from elsewhere).