diesel traction....the end is nigh

[daccer]

With the current predelction for all things electric on our railways it strikes me that we may soon be reminiscing about the days when the diesel ruled the roost similar to the way steam was eulogised about after 1967.

The vast majority of new trains on order are electric (350,378,379,380) and the order sizes are much larger than the few diesel units on order (172's). The IEP will naturally be an electric machine now that mainline electrification for MML and GWML is to be authorised. It is inevitable that once large scale electrification starts it will only gather pace as areas not included clamour for their own improved service. HS 2 will also naturally be electrified as will Crossrail. On top of this ROSCOS are now very reluctant to finance diesel trains. I actually believe the 202 units due to be ordered soon may well the last large scale diesel order we see.

Freight may be a last hiding place for diesel traction although i would be very surprised if the class 66 replacement is not an electric loco in 20m years or so.

Your comments are welcomed on any of the above plus some views on whether the network will become less interesting when the vast majority is electrified. Also those lines which will need diesel units may find it difficult to justify investment in such and so tram/trains and parry people movers may become the norm on non-electrified lines. As a last aside will the 1960's and the mass dieselisation of the network ever be considered a golden age when the dust has settled and steam is nothing but a distant memory.

 

[richa2002]

I personally don't really find say a 170 that more interesting than a 357 so I don't really think it really makes a lot of difference. Not really comparable with steam and diesel.

 

[SuperVoyager]

Good! Get vid of the horrid hst's.

 

[O L Leigh]

Electrification has it's place and it is right that it should be expanded, but I think you are very premature to be sounding the death knell for diesel traction.

Citing the recent orders being predominantly for electric traction is slightly disingenuous. The majority of these orders are to replace stock approaching life expired. The Cl378 will see off the Cl313 from the NLL while the Cl380 will trigger a cascade of stock to see off the Cl314 from the Glasgow suburban lines. The Cl379's for the Stansted Express will similarly trigger a cascade that will allow for other services to be strengthened thereby providing additional capacity on the West Anglia division of NXEA, while additional Cl350's for London Midland will release Cl323's for deployment elsewhere (probably to Northern). None of these orders are bound up with further electrification of the network.

Besides, the diesel fleet has been subject to large-scale renewal and expansion already. There are no DMU's more than 20 years old running on the network, but there are EMU's that are 30 years old running around with little or no prospect of replacement. Looking at the EMU fleet as a whole it certainly gives the impression that money has been lavished on new trains (e.g the total replacement of slam door stock), but it conveniently ignores the fact that there are fleets out there that are getting very long in the tooth.

Besides, the announcement of a few electrification schemes is hardly likely to dent the need for diesel stock. Wiring the MML and GWML is still going to leave a very large number of route miles without electrification. There may not be many orders for new diesel stock in the offing, but that doesn't mean that they aren't required or that the type is under threat.

O L Leigh

 

[Flyboy]

I recently toured Italy and Switzerland on my bike and had a chance to observe several electric railway systems during the trip. I have to say that in comparison to other Countries, the UK's electrification set-up looks like a complex and untidy metallic mess, ie. gantries and wires all over the place. Systems in France, Switzerland and Italy look so much neater and and blend well into the landscape.

Could I ask for an educated opinion why ours look the way they do?

 

[Daimler]

While I don't expect diesel traction to go for a very long time - indeed, I would be surprised if lines such as those in the north of Scotland, or in Wales, or indeed branch lines around the country were ever electrified - or at least not for a very long time. Electrification is expensive, and on such lines I don't think the returns would justify the cost.

Having said that, I don't see myself reminiscing about the loss of diesel traction - like Richard above, I find diesels no more interesting than electrics.

Now steam, that's a different matter...

 

[driver9000]

14x and 15x DMU fleets all date from the mid to late 80s making them all over 20yrs old with no definite dates for replacement yet

 

[37401]

Good! Get vid of the horrid hst's.

says the man with a HST for his Avatar

HST`s have revolutionised the Railways and compared to the horrid Voyagers they are so much better, More Seats,More space for luggage,Quieter, more air conditioned. Basicly just great

 

[kyrano]

While I don't expect diesel traction to go for a very long time - indeed, I would be surprised if lines such as those in the north of Scotland, or in Wales, or indeed branch lines around the country were ever electrified - or at least not for a very long time. Electrification is expensive, and on such lines I don't think the returns would justify the cost.

Having said that, I don't see myself reminiscing about the loss of diesel traction - like Richard above, I find diesels no more interesting than electrics.

Now steam, that's a different matter...

steam engines belong in the nrm !!!

 

[90019]

HST`s have revolutionised the Railways

The Morris Minor revolutionised the roads, but you don't see everyone driving them today, beause things move on.

 

[Daimler]

steam engines belong in the nrm !!!

Nonsense, just fit 6229 with some tilting equipment and you'll have the perfect train for the modern railway!

 

[daccer]

The major issue that will be facing diesel fleets in the coming years is actually blindingly obvious. They run on a fossil fuel which is becoming scarcer and therefore progressively more expensive. The current Sprinter and Pacer fleets have maybe ten to fifteen years left before replacement will be necessary (it is probably necessary now for some of the classes!). As most classes are designed for a 30-40 year shelf life it means that the replacements for the Sprinters will be expected to be in service until 2050. I am sure that the number of people who will see diesel in 2050 as being a viable fuel source will be few and far between.

The point of my thread was really to try and see into a crystal ball and see what happens when the current fleets go to the scrapper. I dont agree that the current electric builds are just replacing like for like. The need for fleet expansion due to endemic passenger growth is obvious and this means that many classes will continue for a few years longer than would have been the case in bygone years. All of the displaced classes seem to be finding homes elsewhere. The issue for me will be when large scale sprinter and pacer replacement becomes needed - who will finance trains for which the fuel source is going to become an issue. and if new trains arent built for lines which cannot justify electrification what are the alternatives?

We have been avoiding this issue for a long time in the UK. We are years behind our European counterparts in this matter and will be reaping the 'rewards' of backward thinking when it comes to motive power and electrification. It will take us years to catch up - as diesel/oil prices inevitably recover after the recession so the cost of running our network will go up. The penny pinching of the 70's,80'and 90's will cost us many times over in increased running costs and environmental issues. I see a problem coming in the next five to ten years as clapped out diesel units start to need replacement. if ROSCO's wont fund diesel units now what chance in 2015/2020?

 

[mumrar]

The Morris Minor revolutionised the roads, but you don't see everyone driving them today, beause things move on.

The Morris Minor tried to revive an already failing British motor industry, but it did revolutionise the road experience. And whilst cars have moved much further on from the 62mph of the Morris, on our national network the HST still travels at the maximum 125mph. I think cars have advanced in the creature comfort department since the Morris than trains. Refurbished HSTs have power sockets and Wi-fi, so what do they miss out on? The Morris didn't even have heaters, and stuff we assume as a requirement had not been dreamt of. There's no practical comparison between the two.

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

The Morris Minor revolutionized the roads, but you don't see everyone driving them today, because things move on.

I don't see why we need to move on from the HST. It's had a new lease of life with the MTU and a refurb. It has Power Sockets, A buffet car, WiFi on most routes and can do the Countries highest limit of 125. The Mk3s are great carriages and all in all they are much better than Pendos. IEP has alot to live up to beat the iconic Intercity 125.

 

[90019]

There's no practical comparison between the two.

Why, thank you

I knew it was a crap comparison, I just wanted to hear the froth about HSTs being compared to a Morris
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Mk3s are great carriages and all in all they are much better than Pendos.

Which would you rather have a crash in?

 

[asylumxl]

Would you buy a gourmet meal that's been heated up in the microwave 4 or 5 times previously?

Technology moves on. Get used to it .

 

[Daimler]

We have been avoiding this issue for a long time in the UK. We are years behind our European counterparts in this matter and will be reaping the 'rewards' of backward thinking when it comes to motive power and electrification. It will take us years to catch up - as diesel/oil prices inevitably recover after the recession so the cost of running our network will go up. The penny pinching of the 70's,80'and 90's will cost us many times over in increased running costs and environmental issues. I see a problem coming in the next five to ten years as clapped out diesel units start to need replacement. if ROSCO's wont fund diesel units now what chance in 2015/2020?

A good point, and one I missed on a first reading of the thread. It's quite tricky, because while I don't see our rail network as it's managed at the moment ever electrifying country branch lines, eventually something will have to be done. I fearfully see a slight possibility of a future where many country lines are closed as a result of government's unwillingness to invest. However, I hope any future government will be enlightened enough not to do this - further 'rationalisation' (if ever there was a vile euphemism...) of the network won't solve the problem, as environmentally, the idea is to get people out of their cars. I suppose, eventually, electrification will need to be looked at, but when - and which government - will eventually acknowledge the 'elephant in the room' is far less certain...

 

[tbtc]

Electrification has it's place and it is right that it should be expanded, but I think you are very premature to be sounding the death knell for diesel traction.

Citing the recent orders being predominantly for electric traction is slightly disingenuous. The majority of these orders are to replace stock approaching life expired. The Cl378 will see off the Cl313 from the NLL while the Cl380 will trigger a cascade of stock to see off the Cl314 from the Glasgow suburban lines. The Cl379's for the Stansted Express will similarly trigger a cascade that will allow for other services to be strengthened thereby providing additional capacity on the West Anglia division of NXEA, while additional Cl350's for London Midland will release Cl323's for deployment elsewhere (probably to Northern). None of these orders are bound up with further electrification of the network.

Besides, the diesel fleet has been subject to large-scale renewal and expansion already. There are no DMU's more than 20 years old running on the network, but there are EMU's that are 30 years old running around with little or no prospect of replacement. Looking at the EMU fleet as a whole it certainly gives the impression that money has been lavished on new trains (e.g the total replacement of slam door stock), but it conveniently ignores the fact that there are fleets out there that are getting very long in the tooth.

Besides, the announcement of a few electrification schemes is hardly likely to dent the need for diesel stock. Wiring the MML and GWML is still going to leave a very large number of route miles without electrification. There may not be many orders for new diesel stock in the offing, but that doesn't mean that they aren't required or that the type is under threat.

O L Leigh

I think I agree with all of that - well put

 

[GNERman]

no modern diesels do have a future with open access I think...

Which would you rather have a crash in?

either cause its not really gonna happen to one of us
(that was a stupid question)

 

[90019]

either cause its not really gonna happen to one of us
(that was a stupid question)

It's entirely possible and its not a stupid question.

I presume this means you're quite happy to travel in a really unsafe car because crashing in it "is not really gonna happen"?

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

It's entirely possible and its not a stupid question.

I presume this means you're quite happy to travel in a really unsafe car because crashing in it "is not really gonna happen"?

It wasn't stupid question at all. Quite a serious one in fact. I would rather crash in a Pendo carriage than a Mk3, but If i didn't know a crash was going to happen I would alway choose a Mk3 on top, whether it be LHCS or a HST Mk3. And seen as I am never going to know when A crash happens, I'll choose the Mk3 thanks.

 

[asylumxl]

The new mandatory European rules on crash protection will come into force in a few years time, and most new rolling stock is being designed to it currently.

The window pillars are thick for your protection, and the shell designed around the needs of the structure. So in the event of a crash people don't die unnecessary deaths.

Form should follow function. When i see a thick pillar obstructing my view, I appreciate that it could save my life and don't whine because i can't see out the window. I value my life a lot higher than I do a decent view.

Ufton Nervet anyone?

 

[GNERman]

It wasn't stupid question at all. Quite a serious one in fact. I would rather crash in a Pendo carriage than a Mk3, but If i didn't know a crash was going to happen I would alway choose a Mk3 on top, whether it be LHCS or a HST Mk3. And seen as I am never going to know when A crash happens, I'll choose the Mk3 thanks.

well said

but both are very safe and withhold a great deal of pressure...

 

[richa2002]

It's entirely possible and its not a stupid question.

I presume this means you're quite happy to travel in a really unsafe car because crashing in it "is not really gonna happen"?

The chances of a crash are so minute that it would be absolute nonsense to choose something less superior on the very, very small chance there will be a serious crash. May as well not cross the road if you're that paranoid about life.

 

[mumrar]

Why, thank you

I knew it was a crap comparison, I just wanted to hear the froth about HSTs being compared to a Morris
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Which would you rather have a crash in?

I regularly crash in mk3s as they don't offer a Pendolino sleeper

 

[90019]

I regularly crash in mk3s as they don't offer a Pendolino sleeper

I'm sure you could ask nicely and they might

 

[SuperVoyager]

says the man with a HST for his Avatar

HST`s have revolutionised the Railways and compared to the horrid Voyagers they are so much better, More Seats,More space for luggage,Quieter, more air conditioned. Basicly just great

Not saying its good just cos its in my avatar. they are a load of cheese.

 

[generalvegitable]

I'm sure you could ask nicely and they might

but would you want a pendolino sleeper? windows that are only the size of your computer mouse with blinds that only go halfway down, and beds that feel like the mattress is made of bricks? would you want that, or would you rather have a nice comfy bed with windows that are the right size, blinds that go all the way down, and a proper mattress?

 

[90019]

but would you want a pendolino sleeper? windows that are only the size of your computer mouse with blinds that only go halfway down, and beds that feel like the mattress is made of bricks? would you want that, or would you rather have a nice comfy bed with windows that are the right size, blinds that go all the way down, and a proper mattress?

Yes, windows really make a difference when you're asleep...

And you can't just say they wouldn't be any good because you dont like them, for all you know, if it ever did happen, they could be more comfortable.

 

[generalvegitable]

they could be But I would rather brush my teeth with my head sticking out the window than using a sink