XC Voyagers

[6Gman]

My main issue with Voyagers is that they're uncomfortable. I'm 6'3" and I find them very, very uncomfortable if I'm sitting next to someone. If I've got two seats to myself or one of the extra leg room seats at the end of the carriage, they're OK, but if I'm in a regular airline seat, I can't even fit my knees behind the seat in front.

I know there's profit to be had, but I'd like to see a refurb where they spread out the seats a little better - (perhaps lining them up with the windows) so that taller people like me can sit more comfortably.

Which reduces the capacity. Which means more people standing.

Train design is a compromise.

 

[devonexpress]

My main issue with Voyagers is that they're uncomfortable. I'm 6'3" and I find them very, very uncomfortable if I'm sitting next to someone. If I've got two seats to myself or one of the extra leg room seats at the end of the carriage, they're OK, but if I'm in a regular airline seat, I can't even fit my knees behind the seat in front.

I know there's profit to be had, but I'd like to see a refurb where they spread out the seats a little better - (perhaps lining them up with the windows) so that taller people like me can sit more comfortably.

That's why I said, make the seats thinner but more padding to make them comfier, whilst you would get may 2 rows more seats, you could keep the seating space or maybe even increase it slightly. But to be honest, they would be better off on Hull Trains/Grand Central/Transpennie Express routes, maybe replace the 68's/Mk3 on Chiltern and bring in new Class 802s which have more room for the XC franchise allowing the HSTs to be retired and a standardised fleet across the network.

 

[Chester1]

When I asked XC they said they had no plans to do anything with them. If they where given a good strip out, some mods to make the space inside a bit bigger, maybe put more wiring under floor etc, then have some new panels to make more room. Then all they need is better seats, maybe a bit thinner but more padding on them?, with XC moquette and carpets and job done.

Overall they are not bad trains, the problem is the interior design, and how they are treated by the TOC. Myself I think more Class 802s would be better for XC, and then move the Voyagers, to Hull Trains, Transpennie, and Chiltern.

Hull trains has ordered 800s and most of their service will benefit from bi mode trains. Transpennine has ordered sufficient rolling stock and could retain upto 22 extra 185s. Chiltern could Voyagers to cascade their Mark III sets, 168s and 172s. However they do not need 58 Voyagers or anything close to that. I think EMTs Meridian fleet of 27 units would be more suitable if the next Chiltern franchise holder wanted stock more suited to intercity services. Alternatively all the Merdians could go to CrossCountry replacing the HSTs and providing a combined 220/221/222 fleet of 81 units. CrossCountry using a fleet of existing stock would not have a political backlash because it is not the primary opperator in any region. Local politicians could not claim their area was being giving second rate trains especially if they were internally refurbed. CrossCountry needs more capacity and lower fares not new trains. The quality issues can be sufficiently solved by very thorough internal refurb and better upkeep. The possibility of a bi mode order and shortage of alternative ToCs should reduce the Voyagers leasing costs for the next franchise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. Coach D on Virgin units is a good example of how they can be made "not rubbish" by using a lower density seat layout.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Um. Don't kill me here, but I wish voyagers or meridians would replace 159s on WofE line Services to Exeter,

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Agreed. Coach D on Virgin units is a good example of how they can be made "not rubbish" by using a lower density seat layout.

Don't you mean, what Coach D used to be like? Didn't they change it?

 

[Polarbear]

I doubt the Voyagers will be disappearing anytime soon. The trains themselves aren't the worst I've ever been on, but as has been mentioned on more than one thread, they aren't exactly suitable for the work they're asked to do & the interior configuration is, err, rubbish.

As regards refurbishment, it's been a while since I've been on XC for any distance, but given it's an Arriva franchise, I'm not in the least surprised that they're not exactly being given much in the way of TLC.

Unless the next franchise holder for XC has particularly deep pockets, I can't see much being done with the Voyagers other than a cosmetic makeover.

 

[Polarbear]

Don't you mean, what Coach D used to be like? Didn't they change it?

Coach D on the VT Voyagers is still in the same layout (mainly bays of 4 around windows), but is now upholstered as a standard class coach & not first class.

Nice as it would be, it would strip a lot of capacity out of a train that is already strapped for capacity.

 

[superalbs]

Um. Don't kill me here, but I wish voyagers or meridians would replace 159s on WofE line Services to Exeter,

To what benefit? :P

 

[6Gman]

Coach D on the VT Voyagers is still in the same layout (mainly bays of 4 around windows), but is now upholstered as a standard class coach & not first class.

Nice as it would be, it would strip a lot of capacity out of a train that is already strapped for capacity.

Exactly. Hence my comment about train design being a compromise.

On Summer Saturdays and around Bank Holidays perhaps Voyagers (and Pendolini) need more luggage space. But that means fewer seats and when that same unit is working the 1710 Birmingham - Manchester people would say "what's all this empty luggage space for when we're standing?" So there's a compromise between luggage space and seats.

Some people want better seat spacing. But probably not those who have to stand because there's now 8 fewer seats in each carriage!

And then people talk about 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 car Voyagers. But where's the money coming from?

It's all a compromise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Longer Turbostars would have been better than 4 car Voyagers.

 

[Starmill]

Um. Don't kill me here, but I wish voyagers or meridians would replace 159s on WofE line Services to Exeter,

How would you offer 9 car services? What would you do about the attachments and detachments? How would you cope with the vast reduction in the number of standard class seats?

Don't you mean, what Coach D used to be like? Didn't they change it?

It's still all tables. It just had it's seat covers replaced so now they are not like sitting on a sack of potatoes.

 

[Master29]

Actually XC do have their good points on some things, the XC only walkup prices on some northern ECML flows make things a tad more barable and I recently had the best bustitution for a very long while off them; old coach but refurbed well with nice driver, refreshments and it thundered up the A1 getting in to EDB 30 ahead of shedule and 1 hour ahead of VTECs less cumfy stopping service.
Their food when you can get it is nice, staff often good and the HST's are loveley.


Strip them of everything usable and send whats left to Booths.

Unfortunately the opposite at the other end of the country. Trains from Devon and Cornwall to Bristol and Birmingham are always bloody expensive and crowded.
The Voyagers seem very much the equivalent of the DMS fleetline bus in London back in the 70`s. They did pave the way to the future (fast inter city DMU`s and one man buses} as all subsequent modes show but they were both poor of the peg designs not made for the situations they encountered.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Myself I think more Class 802s would be better for XC, and then move the Voyagers, to Hull Trains, Transpennie, and Chiltern.

You cannot shift trains around like you owned the chess board.
The best outcome for XC is some sort of shared bid/operation with East Midlands when they both come up for rebidding next year.
EMids is already earmarked for bi-modes, thanks to the electrification cancellation.
But they will be separate bids so who knows what will be included/selected for each.
And you can't tell open access operators what trains they should run.
Transpennine is already "sorted" in the medium term with its weird mixture of new stock and 185s.
I guess longer term plans might change when the TP electrification decisions are made (still in limbo).
Chiltern you can forget about for 3 years until its turn comes round.
XC franchise remapping is possible in 2019, but the DfT doesn't seem to like surgery after the TSGN issues.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

How would you offer 9 car services? What would you do about the attachments and detachments? How would you cope with the vast reduction in the number of standard class seats?

You get four coach Voyagers. You get five coach Super Voyagers. They have couplers. Four plus five equals nine.

 

[Ash Bridge]

You get four coach Voyagers. You get five coach Super Voyagers. They have couplers. Four plus five equals nine.

But you didn't answer the last part of the question.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

But you didn't answer the last part of the question.

Q2) Voyagers can couple.

Q3) They rarely run 9 car sets anyway, it always seems to be 6. But where they currently run 9 car sets you could use 10 or 12 car formations, although platform extensions may be required.

 

[Starmill]

You get four coach Voyagers. You get five coach Super Voyagers. They have couplers. Four plus five equals nine.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W34568/2017/10/08

So for example this service would go from 6 cars from Exeter St Davids to Salisbury down to 5 (with just 4 Standard) and 4 from Bristol Temple Meads (just 3 Standard) and they would couple at Salisbury. How would you compensate for the ~40% loss of standard class seating there? Presumably you would just reduce the capacity on weekday 10 car services too?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W34568/2017/10/08

So for example this service would go from 6 cars from Exeter St Davids to Salisbury down to 5 (with just 4 Standard) and 4 from Bristol Temple Meads (just 3 Standard) and they would couple at Salisbury. How would you compensate for the ~40% loss of standard class seating there? Presumably you would just reduce the capacity on weekday 10 car services too?

Ok, I take it back. But I think the line deserves a little more than purely DMUs if it is as they call it, a “Main Line”

 

[Starmill]

Why? Is the Chiltern Mainline not a Main Line because it operates mostly with DMUs? Chiltern's DMUs can offer significantly more inter-city capacity than their Loco Hauled sets too, with 8 or 9 standard coaches, rather than only 5.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Ok, I take it back. But I think the line deserves a little more than purely DMUs if it is as they call it, a “Main Line”

Isn't the NR line down between Old Oak and South Ruislip known as the New North Main Line? All that gets is a 165 once a day. Voyagers to Chiltern post-haste!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Isn't the NR line down between Old Oak and South Ruislip known as the New North Main Line? All that gets is a 165 once a day. Voyagers to Chiltern post-haste!

Oh, we are clever, aren’t we?

Well, sorry to rain on your parade, but the New North Main Line is the what the Acton to Northolt Line is intended to become in the future when Chiltern Rail services begin operations from Old Oak Common in about twenty years time and it will be a mainline then, as Chiltern will shift a vast majority of their Marylebone - Birmingham services to OOC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why? Is the Chiltern Mainline not a Main Line because it operates mostly with DMUs? Chiltern's DMUs can offer significantly more inter-city capacity than their Loco Hauled sets too, with 8 or 9 standard coaches, rather than only 5.

Whatever they happen to think about it, Chiltern is a secondary regional express/inter-regional line. It's a rather good one, but it does have ideas above its, err, station at times.

It's a lot like TPE, which presently is not an InterCity operation even though it connects cities, it's a regional express service.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Oh, we are clever, aren’t we?

Well, sorry to rain on your parade, but the New North Main Line is the what the Acton to Northolt Line is intended to become in the future when Chiltern Rail services begin operations from Old Oak Common in about twenty years time and it will be a mainline then, as Chiltern will shift a vast majority of their Marylebone - Birmingham services to OOC.

Doesn't stop it being known as the NNML for as long as I've been an enthusiast (and judging by Wikidepia, for several decades before me too; certainly well before HS2 ever materialised). I didn't think anyone actually knew what was going on with Chiltern into OOC yet, the recent Chiltern Route Study as far as I know merely suggests Chiltern diverting that way is an option.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Why? Is the Chiltern Mainline not a Main Line because it operates mostly with DMUs? Chiltern's DMUs can offer significantly more inter-city capacity than their Loco Hauled sets too, with 8 or 9 standard coaches, rather than only 5.

I said "just", not "mainly,".

GWML has HSTs and soon IEPs.
WCML has Pendolinos.
GEML has 90s and Mk 3s.
ECML has HSTs, 225s and soon IEPs.
MML has HSTs.
SWML has long distance EMUs.
Highland ML has HSTs.
Chiltern ML has 68s and Mk 3s.

But anyway, moving on from "Mainlines" before I get told off (Although another thing that makes the WofE ML seem not at all like a mainline is single track! Mainlines should be double track at least, if not quadruple!) is that Voyagers could remove some disabled toilets from vestibules, and then you could fit in about five-six more seats, albeit sideways. Not many more, but every seat counts.

 

[superalbs]

But anyway, moving on from "Mainlines" before I get told off (Although another thing that makes the WofE ML seem not at all like a mainline is single track! Mainlines should be double track at least, if not quadruple!) is that Voyagers could remove some disabled toilets from vestibules, and then you could fit in about five-six more seats, albeit sideways. Not many more, but every seat counts.

Pretty sure they're part of the bodyshell, and cannot be removed even if they wanted to, which is why I think Voyagers are doomed to be bad no matter what.

 

[6Gman]

I said "just", not "mainly,".

GWML has HSTs and soon IEPs.
WCML has Pendolinos.
GEML has 90s and Mk 3s.
ECML has HSTs, 225s and soon IEPs.
MML has HSTs.
SWML has long distance EMUs.
Highland ML has HSTs.
Chiltern ML has 68s and Mk 3s.

But anyway, moving on from "Mainlines" before I get told off (Although another thing that makes the WofE ML seem not at all like a mainline is single track! Mainlines should be double track at least, if not quadruple!) is that Voyagers could remove some disabled toilets from vestibules, and then you could fit in about five-six more seats, albeit sideways. Not many more, but every seat counts.

How many disabled toilets are there on a Voyager?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Part of the bodyshell? Oh great...

Although I would be happy to travel on one really, especially in first class. If I go to Southampton (usually from Basingstoke), I often deliberately miss the 444 to get the CrossCountry service.

Everyone complains about Voyagers, but I can promise you if I was travelling on a VT/XC Voyager I'd do that over travelling on any of the following any day:

142/143/150/153/155/156/158/159/165/166/168/170/171/172/175 (yes, really! Not as good as people make out)/185/313/314/315 (shudder)/317/318/319/320/321/322/323/332/333/334/345/350/357/360/365/380/395/442/444 (everyone adores them, I do too but find them boring because I'm always on them)/450 (yuck)/455/456/458/465/466

Yes, I prefer Voyagers to all of the above. Don't look so shocked! I can rarely ever smell excrement, I think the seats are decent enough, although I'm mainly used to the 1st class seats, yet the Standard class ones are good too. Window blinds great idea, although I'm always sure to ask the person sitting in the row that shares mine if they mind before lowering it. Underfloor engines are brilliant because a Voyager makes my favourite diesel sound and yes, I have heard 37s and yes, I have heard Valentas. For some reason I crave the sound of a Voyager "bing bong" and always listen out for it (very upset when it was replaced on Pendos). I always reserve myself a seat about ten to fifteen minutes before travelling so I don't have to stand. Oh, and decent legroom too. If you disagree, try riding those 159s you seem to adore. Although I do like them too.

So I enjoy Voyagers, although I prefer travelling on 180s, 222s, HSTs, 90+Mk3s, IC 225s (my fave), Pendolinos, 373s and 374s and that's it! Anything else I'll take a Voyager over.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

How many disabled toilets are there on a Voyager?

3 on four car sets.
4 on five car sets.

 

[superalbs]

3 on four car sets.
4 on five car sets.

No idea how they ended up with four huge toilets on a five car set.

I thought the story was that they misread a train specification that they had to put a huge toilet for every class and that they had planned to have three classes, but that doesn't explain why they have four on a five car set.