Catalonia: independence referendum 2017

[backontrack]

There didn't seem to be a thread for the events that have unfolded in Catalonia. Until now.

On 1 October, Catalonia held a referendum on the issue of independence from Spain. The region's largest city is Barçelona. Catalonia has its own proud culture and identity, and the independence debate has been raging for a long time.

The referendum on Sunday was not recognised legally by the Government of Spain. The Spanish police were called in to close polling stations and prevent people from voting. Videos showing police brutality have been circulated on social media as rubber bullets were fired and truncheons used.

The referendum question was: "Do you want Catalonia to become an independent state in the form of a republic?"

91.96% of voters cast their ballots in favour of independence.

There is no precedent for this sort of situation. The Government of Spain is opposed to self-determination referenda for any of its regions; as well as Catalonia, there are also notable independence in Galicia and the Basque Country.

According to Reuters, an official declaration of independence for Catalonia is expected on Monday 9th October:

BARCELONA/MADRID (Reuters) - Catalonia will move on Monday to declare independence from Spain following Oct. 1’s banned referendum as the European Union nation nears a rupture that threatens the foundations of its young democracy.

Mireia Boya, a Catalan lawmaker from the pro-independence Popular Unity Candidacy (CUP) party, said on Twitter that a declaration of independence would follow a parliamentary session on Monday to evaluate the results of the vote to break away.

“We know that there may be disbarments, arrests ... But we are prepared, and in no case will it be stopped,” she said.

Catalan President Carles Puigdemont earlier said he would ask the region’s parliament to declare independence following the poll, which Spain’s government and constitutional court say was illegal and in which only a minority of Catalans voted.

“This will probably finish once we get all the votes in from abroad at the end of the week and therefore we shall probably act over the weekend or early next week,” he told the BBC in remarks published on Wednesday.

In an interview with German newspaper Bild, Puigdemont said he already felt like “a president of a free country where millions of people have made an important decision”.

He said the Madrid government’s refusal to negotiate had left Catalonia “no other way” than to declare independence and accused it of authoritarianism.

“The Spanish government is letting political opponents be arrested, it is influencing media and blocking Internet sites. We are under observation day and night,” Puigdemont said.

“What is that other than an authoritarian state?”

Spain was only restored to democracy following the death in 1975 of dictator Francisco Franco, under whom the Catalan language and traditions were suppressed.

The constitutional crisis in Spain, the euro zone’s fourth-biggest economy, has shaken the common currency and hit Spanish stocks and bonds, sharply raising Madrid’s borrowing costs.

The cost of insuring against potential losses on Spanish bank debt and Spanish, Italian and Portuguese sovereign debt has also jumped, suggesting an impact on the wider euro zone.

Bank stocks were hit especially hard as the Ibex stock index .IBEX, fell below 10,000 points on Wednesday for the first time since March 2015. In a sign of the nervous public mood, Catalonia's biggest bank, Caixabank (CABK.MC), and Spain's economy minister had earlier sought to assure bank customers that their deposits were safe.

Influential Catalan business lobby Cercle d‘Economia said it was extremely worried by the prospect of Catalonia declaring independence and called for both sides to start talks.

“Such a declaration would plunge the country into an extraordinarily complex situation with unknown, but very serious consequences,” the group said in a statement.

EVENING STATEMENT
Puigdemont’s comments appeared after Spain’s King Felipe VI accused secessionist leaders on Tuesday of shattering democratic principles and dividing Catalan society, as tens of thousands protested against a violent police crackdown on Sunday’s vote.

The Catalan leader is due to make a statement at 9 p.m. (1900 GMT) on Wednesday.

Spain has been rocked by the Catalan vote and the Spanish police response to it, which saw batons and rubber bullets used to prevent people voting. Hundreds were injured, in scenes that brought international condemnation.

Catalans came out onto the streets on Tuesday to condemn the police action, shutting down traffic, public transport and businesses, and stoking fears about intensifying unrest in a region that makes up one-fifth of the Spanish economy.

“As a businessman, as a Spaniard and as a person, I am very worried and I am scared by what’s going on (in Catalonia),” said Juan Roig, chairman of Spain’s biggest food retailer Mercadona.

“IRRESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOR”

Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, a conservative who has taken a hard line on Catalan independence faces a huge challenge to see off the issue without further unrest and potential damage to his minority government.

Pro-independence parties which control the regional government staged the referendum in defiance of a Constitutional Court ruling that the vote violated Spain’s 1978 constitution, which states the country is indivisible.

Catalonia has its own language and culture and a political movement for secession that has strengthened in recent years.

Participants in Sunday’s ballot -- only about 43 percent of eligible voters -- opted overwhelmingly for independence, a result that was expected since residents who favor remaining part of Spain mainly boycotted the referendum.

Outside Catalonia, Spaniards mostly hold strong views against its independence drive. In his televised address, the king said the “irresponsible behavior” of the Catalan leaders had undermined social harmony in the region.

“Today Catalan society is fractured and in conflict,” he said. “They (the Catalan leaders) have infringed the system of legally approved rules with their decisions, showing an unacceptable disloyalty toward the powers of the state.”

The king said the crown was strongly committed to the Spanish constitution and to democracy, and underlined his commitment to the unity and permanence of Spain. He had earlier met Rajoy to discuss the situation in Catalonia.

Opinion polls conducted before the vote suggested a minority of around 40 percent of residents in the region backed independence. But a majority wanted a referendum to be held, and the violent police crackdown angered Catalans across the divide.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Considering Spain's recent-ish history, scenes of the federal police attacking civilians is deeply worrying...
Also, I'm astonished that the Central Government thought that this was a sensible response. The courts had already ruled the referendum to be unconstitutional, so surely better to let it take place and then refuse to enact any changes. By brutalising citizens they've surely strengthened the case for secession among those who were undecided.

One thing that has come up as a result of the call for independence is the suggestion that Barcelona (the football club) could apply to join the English Premier League. This is something I'd be strongly opposed to just as I am whenever the suggestion of Celtic or "Rangers" joining is made:- which is to say they can join if they start at the same level of the pyramid that any other new entrants to the league system join at. That would at least be a money-spinner for Taunton Town and the like!

 

[GusB]

I too was quite surprised that nothing has been mentioned on the forum until now. As someone who voted "Yes" in the Scottish independence referendum, I've been following the Catalonian situation with interest. While > 90% in favour is a fantastic result, I can't see how it can be construed as "the will of the people", when many people were prevented from voting entirely, and the turnout was just shy of 43%.

(Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017)

The referendum question, which voters answered with "Yes" or "No", was "Do you want Catalonia to become an independent state in the form of a republic?". The "Yes" side won, with 2,020,144 (91.96%) voting for independence and 176,565 (8.04%) voting against, on a turnout of 42.58%. The Catalan government estimated that up to 770,000 votes were not cast due to polling stations being closed off during the police crackdown,[1][14][15][16]although the "universal census" system introduced earlier in the day allowed electors to vote in any given polling station.[17] Catalan government officials have argued that the turnout would be higher were it not for Spanish police suppression of the vote[18], and that were it not for closures and police pressure, turnout could have been around 55%.[19] On the other hand, many voters who did not support Catalan independence did not turn out.[20]

As in any election, if you don't bother to turn out, you really shouldn't complain when the result goes one way or the other, but the fact is that people were intimidated into not voting at all, or physically prevented from doing so by the heavy-handed police action, so it's not exactly a true picture. I agree that the Spanish government should have just let the referendum go ahead; if more people had been allowed to vote, they may well have had a better result than they expected.

 

[Busaholic]

Considering Spain's recent-ish history, scenes of the federal police attacking civilians is deeply worrying...
Also, I'm astonished that the Central Government thought that this was a sensible response. The courts had already ruled the referendum to be unconstitutional, so surely better to let it take place and then refuse to enact any changes. By brutalising citizens they've surely strengthened the case for secession among those who were undecided.

It was so ill-judged of the government to send the police in; apparently a lot of the police used were from a long way away, and that won't have helped. Then dragging the King in to make a rather inflammatory statement won't have helped, given the monarchy there has little public support.

I think you're right in your last sentence; plenty of previous anti-devolution and undecided citizens will now feel better disposed towards devolution. Looking a bit further afield, you can now bet the Basque separatists will be agitating again.

 

[cf111]

I honestly couldn't believe what I was seeing when the police piled into voters. If they'd just let things be then they wouldn't have effectively legitimised the result of what was a illegitimate vote. I mean if another independence referendum was held in Scotland which wasn't set up legally then I would refuse to vote in it because it would be more damaging to see a 95% "yes" vote on a turnout of 20%, so really in my view the poll in Spain should have been tolerated and then taken apart by shining a light on how it was run and the lack of constitutional legitimacy. If I was someone in Catalonia who may have been on the fence about seceding from Spain I think the reaction of the Spanish state would have made me want to get out ASAP.

 

[JamesT]

As in any election, if you don't bother to turn out, you really shouldn't complain when the result goes one way or the other, but the fact is that people were intimidated into not voting at all, or physically prevented from doing so by the heavy-handed police action, so it's not exactly a true picture. I agree that the Spanish government should have just let the referendum go ahead; if more people had been allowed to vote, they may well have had a better result than they expected.

I think there was also a reasonably large chunk of people who didn’t vote because they’d see it as legitimising the referendum. This was something that had been ruled illegal by the constitutional court and the opposition parties had urged their supporters not to turn out. I don’t think you can take the turnout as evidence of people being not bothered.

I also note the referendum was set up without any sort of minimum turnout level or anything other than a simple majority required for a win. Which for a major constitutional change is a bit of a surprise, it’s something the Brexit referendum has been attacked for.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It was so ill-judged of the government to send the police in; apparently a lot of the police used were from a long way away, and that won't have helped. Then dragging the King in to make a rather inflammatory statement won't have helped, given the monarchy there has little public support.

I think you're right in your last sentence; plenty of previous anti-devolution and undecided citizens will now feel better disposed towards devolution. Looking a bit further afield, you can now bet the Basque separatists will be agitating again.

Hopefully the Basque separatist movement won't resume armed struggle (AIUI when ETA disbanded, they also put weaponry "beyond use"), but they will perhaps be inspired by the sympathy that the Catalans have gained beyond Spain- possibly as a result of the heavy-handed approach of the Guardia Civil.

As for drafting in police officers from distant regions to police a political action... Now, what does that remind me of...?

 

[12CSVT]

Equally despicable is the stony silence from Governments around the world, including the E.U.
And what planet does King Felipe VI live on, calling the referendum 'undemocratic' ?

 

[Hornet]

It might be worth EU member states reacquainting themselves with articles 2, 3 and 7 of the Lisbon Treaty, with respect to Human Dignity and Human Rights. To think in 2017 a European Country's Law Enforcement Agency would use the tactics that the Guardia Civil did. And on people, whose only crime was to attempt to put a mark on a piece of paper. And to use baton rounds to boot. Regardless of the legality of the vote, NO European Country should resort to using their Law Enforcement Agencies in a situation like this. The EU and it's Commission's failure to condemn the actions of Spain with respect to the actions of the Guardia Civil is appalling.

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/th...ts/title-1-common-provisions/2-article-2.html
http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/th...ts/title-1-common-provisions/4-article-3.html
http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/th...ts/title-1-common-provisions/7-article-7.html

 

[backontrack]

As for drafting in police officers from distant regions to police a political action... Now, what does that remind me of...?

The Saarland plebiscite, right? Although that's Godwin's Law in the 7th post...a possible record

You're right that it is awful. This should have been condemned by European governments and so far almost all have been silent.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Saarland plebiscite, right? Although that's Godwin's Law in the 7th post...a possible record

You're right that it is awful. This should have been condemned by European governments and so far almost all have been silent.

I was referring to the miners' strike, as well you know! (Scargill's Law, perhaps?)

 

[backontrack]

I was referring to the miners' strike, as well you know! (Scargill's Law, perhaps?)

I didn't realise that, but now you mention it it's a much better parallel to be drawn.

 

[Groningen]

If independent i like to know where FC Barcelona will play?! Catalonia, Spain, England, France, Italy or 1 other one.

 

[DarloRich]

The big mistake made was to send in the police to beat up men, women and the elderly trying to vote. This is a country in Western Europe behaving like the worst tin pot African country. How would the EU respond to such scenes in, say, Burunda? Spain should be criticised just as heavily. It is very worrying that such scenes can be seen in a country with such a poor democratic past.

The silence from the EU and other international institutions has been shameful. This kind of behaviour can not be allowed to go unchallenged by a member of a democratic institution like the EU.

As for drafting in police officers from distant regions to police a political action... Now, what does that remind me of...?

More than the police if people who were there are to be believed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The big mistake made was to send in the police to beat up men, women and the elderly trying to vote. This is a country in Western Europe behaving like the worst tin pot African country. How would the EU respond to such scenes in, say, Burunda? Spain should be criticised just as heavily. It is very worrying that such scenes can be seen in a country with such a poor democratic past.

The silence from the EU and other international institutions has been shameful. This kind of behaviour can not be allowed to go unchallenged by a member of a democratic institution like the EU.

I absolutely agree - it is shameful. Such scenes could barely be imagined in Scotland even if "Fishface" had called a unilateral referendum.

I fear this could now lead to civil war.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If independent i like to know where FC Barcelona will play?! Catalonia, Spain, England, France, Italy or 1 other one.

If they were given a pass into the Premier League I'd be done with football in England. If they have to climb the pyramid that's okay. Theoretically they'd be able to stay in La Liga but given the response of the Spanish state I'm not sure that would be tenable.

 

[backontrack]

If they were given a pass into the Premier League I'd be done with football in England. If they have to climb the pyramid that's okay. Theoretically they'd be able to stay in La Liga but given the response of the Spanish state I'm not sure that would be tenable.

I'm sure that Barçelona fans would enjoy going up to Newcastle and Burnley on a bi-weekly basis, just as much as English fans would all love playing away games that require a plane trip to get there and back.

I think the French League is rather more practical; Catalonia and France share a land border, and Monaco play in Ligue 1 after all...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm sure that Barçelona fans would enjoy going up to Newcastle and Burnley on a bi-weekly basis, just as much as English fans would all love playing away games that require a plane trip to get there and back.

I think the French League is rather more practical; Catalonia and France share a land border, and Monaco play in Ligue 1 after all...

It would make the French league more competitive, but the residual Spanish league would end up like Scotland: one, maybe two big teams in the capital with everyone else fighting over the scraps.

Going back to the wider political situation, would a newly independent Catalonia wish for the French part of Catalonia to join up too, and would French Catalans be on board with that, I wonder?

 

[DarloRich]

tbh the league in which Barcelona play after a declaration of independence is about 5636216354 on the list of issues.

 

[backontrack]

The big mistake made was to send in the police to beat up men, women and the elderly trying to vote. This is a country in Western Europe behaving like the worst tin pot African country. How would the EU respond to such scenes in, say, Burunda? Spain should be criticised just as heavily. It is very worrying that such scenes can be seen in a country with such a poor democratic past.

The silence from the EU and other international institutions has been shameful. This kind of behaviour can not be allowed to go unchallenged by a member of a democratic institution like the EU.

Agree 100%.

Going back to the wider political situation, would a newly independent Catalonia wish for the French part of Catalonia to join up too, and would French Catalans be on board with that, I wonder?

And would Andorra become a part of that?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

According to a story on the BBC, the Spanish government has apologised for the injuries caused during the referendum, but questions the figures of how many were actually injured. On the other hand, the head of the Catalan Police has appeared in court in Madrid under sedition charges on the basis that his officers failed to protect the Guardia Civil from violent protesters...

No, that's not a typo! See here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41523250

 

[Hornet]

It appears that Spanish Politician Pedro Agramunt has less than a full understanding of Human Rights issues. Just like his Country's Parliamentarians.

A top European human rights official has resigned amid a corruption investigation and complaints about him having visited Syria with Russian MPs.

Pedro Agramunt resigned as president of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE). The council is Europe's main human rights watchdog.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41527675

Seems he also has form with regards Azerbaijan. This from 2013.

There are very few fellow members of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) who have been to Azerbaijan as regularly over the past decade as Pedro Agramunt, the conservative Spanish senator, a businessman from Valencia. Agramunt has been consistent in this approach to Azerbaijan: from the very beginning of his relationship with Baku he has been a defender of the Aliyev regime. The latest monitoring report is his masterpiece.

http://www.esiweb.org/pdf/esi_document_id_134.pdf

Is this the level of Spanish Politicians?

 

[najaB]

Catalonia as just declared independence.

How long until the central government sends in the troops?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Catalonia as just declared independence.

How long until the central government sends in the troops?

I thought this would get interesting. Civil War in Spain?

 

[Monty]

I thought this would get interesting. Civil War in Spain?

Unlikely tbh, probably likely to see the whole of Catalonia's police force dismissed if they don't toe the line and the Guarda Civil having a far heavier presence in the area possibly backed up by the Army. I would not be surprised to see strikes across the region.

 

[class387]

Catalan government dissolved:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41783289

Spain's PM Mariano Rajoy dissolves Catalan parliament and calls snap election to "recover normality" in the region

 

[GaryMcEwan]

As usual, The SNP 'respects' Catalonia's decision for independence. If this is how Spain reacts to UDI, I hope Westminster would do the same if they tried it.

 

[najaB]

Catalan government dissolved

Pretty much expected. The question is what will the Catalonian police force do? Where is the loyalty of the officers and does it reflect the rank and file?

 

[najaB]

As usual, The SNP 'respects' Catalonia's decision for independence.

'Respecting' a declaration and agreeing with it or recognising its validity are very different things.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

'Respecting' a declaration and agreeing with it or recognising its validity are very different things.

Oh come on, The SNP will be jumping for joy over this. I'm surprised Eck hasn't made an appearance on the news channels saying that 'the vote of the Catalonian people must be respected' and so on.