RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[LowLevel]

Interesting. Were drivers balloted? If not, is that not illegal action?

No. It appears they have the right to refuse to cross the picket line to a degree though they could be disciplined for breach of contract. This however means that Merseyrail would have to discipline practically all of it's drivers in one go which isn't realistic. They appear to be happy that it's not organised by ASLEF and is simply the drivers showing their support individually rather than collectively otherwise you could have expected legal action by now.

 

[Dave1987]

Interesting. Were drivers balloted? If not, is that not illegal action?

Showing your naivety again are we?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Showing your naivety again are we?

How about answering the question?

 

[Bletchleyite]

No. It appears they have the right to refuse to cross the picket line to a degree though they could be disciplined for breach of contract. This however means that Merseyrail would have to discipline practically all of it's drivers in one go which isn't realistic. They appear to be happy that it's not organised by ASLEF and is simply the drivers showing their support individually rather than collectively otherwise you could have expected legal action by now.

Thanks.

 

[craigybagel]

And bear in mind that at Southern, they still haven't reached an agreement with drivers - despite the fact that most of them already worked some degree of DOO, with some of them working that way exclusively. Yes, it's only been narrowly defeated twice and yes their acceptance is probably inevitable, but it's still rumbling on - and Southern was meant to be the easy target.

Merseyrail, in an area known for its militant tendencies, where none of their drivers currently work DOO and most drivers are ex guards themselves since they don't normally recruit externally, that's going to be a whole different matter.

 

[XDM]

The very extensive Newcastle metro running way beyond Sunderland has been operating happily with DOO since 1976. It is very similar to Merseyrail with tunnels & a 60 mph top speed. It has been safe & is very reliable.
So why can't Merseyrail services be DOO. Liverpudlians deserve to enjoy the efficiency gains & lower cost rail operation that Geordies have had for 42 years.
Yes 42 years of DOO.

 

[Robertj21a]

No. It appears they have the right to refuse to cross the picket line to a degree though they could be disciplined for breach of contract. This however means that Merseyrail would have to discipline practically all of it's drivers in one go which isn't realistic. They appear to be happy that it's not organised by ASLEF and is simply the drivers showing their support individually rather than collectively otherwise you could have expected legal action by now.

At least that sounds fairly pragmatic in those circumstances. We could (all) do with a few more common sense solutions at times.

 

[Chester1]

And bear in mind that at Southern, they still haven't reached an agreement with drivers - despite the fact that most of them already worked some degree of DOO, with some of them working that way exclusively. Yes, it's only been narrowly defeated twice and yes their acceptance is probably inevitable, but it's still rumbling on - and Southern was meant to be the easy target.

Merseyrail, in an area known for its militant tendencies, where none of their drivers currently work DOO and most drivers are ex guards themselves since they don't normally recruit externally, that's going to be a whole different matter.

I disagree with both arguments. The safety case is much weaker with Merseyrail because its essentially an S Bahn system and it will have new trains tailored to DOO and to the network. The platform alterations for the new rolling stock will make solve disabled access issues too.

Liverpool is more millitant than the south but Merseyrail DOO is being pushed by the Labour controlled Merseyside councils who have every financial incentive to win the battle. They wouldn't have decided to implement DOO if they were not very confident of success. Missing the occasionally days pay is different to an all out strike which would be required for the unions to win. Merseyrail will probably offer drivers a pay rise when DOO is introduced too. Rolling stock designed for Merseyrail and DOO, trains and platforms at same level for disabled access and a pay rise should be enough for the vast majority of drivers to back down. Southern drivers did not back the new deal and accept the pay rise because the safety issues have not been resolved. Northern and Southern DOO are very different to Merseyrail DOO.

 

[craigybagel]

I disagree with both arguments. The safety case is much weaker with Merseyrail because its essentially an S Bahn system and it will have new trains tailored to DOO and to the network. The platform alterations for the new rolling stock will make solve disabled access issues too.

Liverpool is more millitant than the south but Merseyrail DOO is being pushed by the Labour controlled Merseyside councils who have every financial incentive to win the battle. They wouldn't have decided to implement DOO if they were not very confident of success. Missing the occasionally days pay is different to an all out strike which would be required for the unions to win. Merseyrail will probably offer drivers a pay rise when DOO is introduced too. Rolling stock designed for Merseyrail and DOO, trains and platforms at same level for disabled access and a pay rise should be enough for the vast majority of drivers to back down. Southern drivers did not back the new deal and accept the pay rise because the safety issues have not been resolved. Northern and Southern DOO are very different to Merseyrail DOO.

With all due respect, the fact that Merseyrail may or may not be more suitable for DOO doesn't come in to it. The drivers don't want it, and they've already shown their strength of feeling by refusing to cross picket lines. It's going to be an expensive battle for them, it's true, but it's going to be very expensive for Merseyrail to win as well.

 

[Chester1]

With all due respect, the fact that Merseyrail may or may not be more suitable for DOO doesn't come in to it. The drivers don't want it, and they've already shown their strength of feeling by refusing to cross picket lines. It's going to be an expensive battle for them, it's true, but it's going to be very expensive for Merseyrail to win as well.

The difference is Merseyrail and Merseytravel bosses won't be losing pay. Its easy for them to make gestures of solidarity now but once the new trains have arrived and guards have become OBS or station staff will drivers actually be prepared to lose thousands of pounds to try to reintroduce guards? Or will they be prepared to launch an indefinate strike on day 1 of DOO? That Merseyrail is suited to DOO and their personal risk will be much lower than Northern and Southern drivers does come into it. It gives them less reason to sacrifice their pay.

 

[godfreycomplex]

The difference is Merseyrail and Merseytravel bosses won't be losing pay. Its easy for them to make gestures of solidarity now but once the new trains have arrived and guards have become OBS or station staff will drivers actually be prepared to lose thousands of pounds to try to reintroduce guards? Or will they be prepared to launch an indefinate strike on day 1 of DOO? That Merseyrail is suited to DOO and their personal risk will be much lower than Northern and Southern drivers does come into it. It gives them less reason to sacrifice their pay.

For some people in this big ol' universe, it isn't all about money

 

[Robertj21a]

With all due respect, the fact that Merseyrail may or may not be more suitable for DOO doesn't come in to it. The drivers don't want it, and they've already shown their strength of feeling by refusing to cross picket lines. It's going to be an expensive battle for them, it's true, but it's going to be very expensive for Merseyrail to win as well.

I doubt that the drivers will get very far if they are going to just say that they don't want it !
I assume they also have a long list of specific concerns about safety issues (that they will need to communicate to the general public, media etc)

 

[craigybagel]

I doubt that the drivers will get very far if they are going to just say that they don't want it !
I assume they also have a long list of specific concerns about safety issues (that they will need to communicate to the general public, media etc)

Fair point. But I think people are being very naive if they think that if you toss them a few quid they'll simply roll over and do as they're told.

 

[craigybagel]

The difference is Merseyrail and Merseytravel bosses won't be losing pay. Its easy for them to make gestures of solidarity now but once the new trains have arrived and guards have become OBS or station staff will drivers actually be prepared to lose thousands of pounds to try to reintroduce guards? Or will they be prepared to launch an indefinate strike on day 1 of DOO? That Merseyrail is suited to DOO and their personal risk will be much lower than Northern and Southern drivers does come into it. It gives them less reason to sacrifice their pay.

That remains to be seen. If the new trains are introduced and the guards are gone, then yes I agree that it's game over. The question is over whether it will get to that point.....

 

[PR1Berske]

Merseyrail is not Northern, by most measures, which perhaps makes both the RMT argument and coordination of strikes harder to justify. As said above, Merseyrail is perhaps more naturally suited to DOO than most other networks outside London. But as said here and other threads, there's no inches given by either side, on anything, leaving everybody stuck in the repeated meme of strike action and meetings for ever more.

 

[Bromley boy]

No. It appears they have the right to refuse to cross the picket line to a degree though they could be disciplined for breach of contract. This however means that Merseyrail would have to discipline practically all of it's drivers in one go which isn't realistic. They appear to be happy that it's not organised by ASLEF and is simply the drivers showing their support individually rather than collectively otherwise you could have expected legal action by now.

Sorry but there’s a contradiction in your post. If they had a right to refuse to cross a picket line they couldn’t be subject to disciplinary proceedings.

From a quick google search I can’t find a quick answer to this.

Can someone au fait with industrial relations law please confirm whether drivers are protected from disciplinary proceedings if they refuse to cross a picket line of strikers from a different grade, albeit employed by the same employer?

 

[Carlisle]

With all due respect, the fact that Merseyrail may or may not be more suitable for DOO doesn't come in to it. The drivers don't want it, and they've already shown their strength of feeling by refusing to cross picket lines. It's going to be an expensive battle for them, it's true, but it's going to be very expensive for Merseyrail to win as well.

As with virtually every previous DOO scheme on rail and tube, (and one man busses before) there’ll always be a small number of drivers who prefer to take retirement/ redundancy or transfer than accept the new jobs, why should Merseyrail be hugely different to what went on before

 

[Chester1]

That remains to be seen. If the new trains are introduced and the guards are gone, then yes I agree that it's game over. The question is over whether it will get to that point.....

How do the unions stop it from getting to that point? These occasional strikes could be ignored for another three or four years. Do you honestly think Merseyrail staff opposition to DOO is about safety? It appears to a different proposal to Northern and Southern.

 

[craigybagel]

As with virtually every previous DOO scheme on rail and tube, (and one man busses before) there’ll always be a small number of drivers who prefer to take retirement/ redundancy or transfer than accept the new jobs, why should Merseyrail be hugely different to what went on before

Different times. Firstly, drivers are much more aware of the risks of dispatch going awry, especially at Merseyrail with their two prosecutions in the last few years. Also, they won't be as easy to pay off now - in BR days the salary was nothing like it is now. If you pay them any more, they'll lose most of it to tax. Whats the point in taking on those risks when you aren't going to see much extra benefit?

How do the unions stop it from getting to that point? These occasional strikes could be ignored for another three or four years. Do you honestly think Merseyrail staff opposition to DOO is about safety? It appears to a different proposal to Northern and Southern.

Refusal to drive the new trains DOO? Isn't that how DOO was defeated on the lines out of Euston?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was it ever actually attempted on the Northampton Line?

 

[craigybagel]

Was it ever actually attempted on the Northampton Line?

I'm not sure, I thought I'd heard something along those lines but if I'm mistaken I apologise.

 

[godfreycomplex]

I'm not sure, I thought I'd heard something along those lines but if I'm mistaken I apologise.

I've also heard something along those lines. Sometime around when the 321s were introduced.
If it worked once....

 

[185143]

I've also heard something along those lines. Sometime around when the 321s were introduced.
If it worked once....

I would fully expect it to happen again on Merseyrail really. The drivers have made their stance on DOO very clear by all refusing to cross the picket lines on every strike day so far...

 

[Carlisle]

I would fully expect it to happen again on Merseyrail really. The drivers have made their stance on DOO very clear by all refusing to cross the picket lines on every strike day so far...

 

[Carlisle]

I’m not so certain, remember the rather cut price Northampton line DOO scheme consisted of lookback, mirrors or pretty crude black and white monitors on some platforms , whereas these new Merseyrail trains will be designed for DOO from scratch incorporating the latest technology as part of the total route modernisation. So it’ll be harder for ASLEF to simply black it all on safety grounds as they did on Northampton and the south western suburban lines

 

[CN75]

My expectation of the outcome is therefore that the strikes will continue, and DOO will proceed. The staff can't afford to go all-out for months (which would be the only option likely to force Merseytravel to reconsider), while in the end once the DOO trains arrive the guards can strike all they like but are unnecessary and will simply be striking during a redundancy process.

On the latter, too much striking and most likely it will be a simple redundancy process with little else offered other than where legally or contractually required, and the bare minimum contractual redundancy pay paid. That is Merseyrail's "weapon".

After being on strike for 12 weeks your employer can just sack you for breach of contact anyway if they have tried to settle the dispute according to the government website. Clearly sacking everyone would be a problem so perhaps just they will just sack those unlucky ones who have been on strike the most first when the new trains are ready (or before) and then make an example and throw off the rest. That would be Merseyrail's or any other TOC's worst weapon in this dispute. It could happen at any time. Would save a lot of redundancy money as well legally, not even have to pay what you said Bletchleyite or keep guards salary for the new jobs after DOO.

 

[craigybagel]

After being on strike for 12 weeks your employer can just sack you for breach of contact anyway if they have tried to settle the dispute according to the government website. Clearly sacking everyone would be a problem so perhaps just they will just sack those unlucky ones who have been on strike the most first when the new trains are ready (or before) and then make an example and throw off the rest. That would be Merseyrail's or any other TOC's worst weapon in this dispute. It could happen at any time. Would save a lot of redundancy money as well legally, not even have to pay what you said Bletchleyite or keep guards salary for the new jobs after DOO.

And they'd have no staff for a year until all the ones they've sacked are replaced - and I would expect it to be almost all, once they start sacking people relations will get a whole lot worse, not better - oh and it would probably cause a nationwide strike by ASLEF. I'd like to think the current people in charge on both sides aren't quite mad enough to let it get that far.

 

[craigybagel]

Delete - posted twice in error

 

[danbarnstall]

And they'd have no staff for a year until all the ones they've sacked are replaced - and I would expect it to be almost all, once they start sacking people relations will get a whole lot worse, not better - oh and it would probably cause a nationwide strike by ASLEF. I'd like to think the current people in charge on both sides aren't quite mad enough to let it get that far.

From what I gather many Drivers are now duel RMT / Aslef and due to this are not in breech of T&Cs. Merseyrail are yet to put their DOO proposal officially to Aslef, now that will be one to watch. With that in mind sacking of drivers can not be a serious consideration, the dispute would go nuclear with Aslef all out too.

 

[scrapy]

And they'd have no staff for a year until all the ones they've sacked are replaced - and I would expect it to be almost all, once they start sacking people relations will get a whole lot worse, not better - oh and it would probably cause a nationwide strike by ASLEF. I'd like to think the current people in charge on both sides aren't quite mad enough to let it get that far.

I am pretty sure a nationwide strike at separate companies would be illegal.