Liverpool Lime St remodelling

[notlob.divad]

Is the plan for the new Mersey Gateway road bridge still to introduce tolls for both the new and old bridges? If so, any changes to stopping WCML services would be contentious for Runcorn residents who would then have to drive to Parkway and pay the tolls... but then again with tolls introduced people from South Liverpool (who may have previously driven to Runcorn to catch trains to London) would rather have the opportunity to catch the same train at South Parkway and avoid said tolls.

Yes it is, and it isn't just the people of South Liverpool, there is a whole swath of none halton residents, across the Liverpool City region for whom Runcorn has been the most accessible WCML station who will now have extra cost to get to and from it. I used to pick friends up from their when they came visiting for a weekend. It would now be the cost of crossing the river twice to do the same vs a quicker train journey for them and me battling the Warrington traffic to collect them from there. And for London trippers, add the toll cost to the cost of using Virgin's car park at the station and it may just be enough to break the will of those who currently use it. I suspect Warrington, Wigan and Lime Street will see their usage figures increase over the next year as the consequences start to bite.

Stopping at both is probably not a great idea and it would be better to have a consistent service than to alternate between Runcorn and South Parkway.

I am not sure why it woudl be such a bad idea, stopping at both, however I guess if Liverpool does get its 2nd tph regularly stopping 1 at an expanded Parkway and the other at Runcorn might be a good solution. But it is a mighty big if.

Diverting the Merseyrail services to Warrington Bank Quay low-level (as suggested above) would seem preferable to the oft-proposed idea of extending them along the CLC to Warrington Central, IF there's a practical way of doing it.

The most practical long term solution, IMO, would be to dig the long mooted tunnel between Liverpool Central and Edge Hill, take a lane or 2 out of the Pendolino depot, and dedicate the slow lines to Merseyrail. At least as far as South Parkway. That would get West Allerton and Mossely Hill on a 4tph Merseyrail frequency and mean that the current CLC stopping services would have more oppurtunity to stay out of the way of the Semi-Fasts. South of there the lines are still used by significant volumes of freight so it may not be practical to get the lines to a WBQ low level, although I would like to see it.

 

[childwallblues]

Totally.
Using Liverpool South Parkway to replace Runcorn as the London train suburb stop would not only provide better rail and airport connections but it would dovetail well with the downgrading of the 1961 Runcorn-Widnes road bridge when the new road bridge ("The Mersey Gateway") opens.

Mind you, there is an argument for a new parkway station at Weaver junction instead to provide good Motorway access for all North Cheshire and hinterland car drivers.

LPY is already full car park ise with no room for expansion.

 

[childwallblues]

The obvious problem that nobody has mentioned yet with South Parkway is that the platform extension is only on the down side. You could extend the other way but then you're halfway* to West Allerton!

*=hyperbole, I know

Platforms 1 and 2 cannot be extended further south due to Allerton Junction. To the north all four tracks cross Woolton Road which is a dual carriageway and very busy. Due south of Platform 3/4 is another bridge which takes the CLC under the mainline.

 

[childwallblues]

But equally as a parkway it also provides a much better solution for those from a whole swathe of south and east Liverpool to access WCML and eventually HS2 expresses by car without having to get into the city centre first.

My suggestion is as attached. Divert dual voltage Merseyrail stock onto the WCML south pair via a new curve to call at Speke (old station site in lieue of Hunts Cross) and stations to Widnes South with option to extent electrification and service even further to Warrington BQ low level. Remove the WCML overbridge over the Merseyrail line and slew the fasts over to the west side of the formation towards Edge Hill, leaving the east pair for the CLC trains with intermediate platforms as appropriate for stopping services. That could provide room for platform extensions at the south end of Parkway station to suit longer express trains and greatly simplify junctions in the area. Clearly some work would also be required around Edge Hill to sort out trains for the final approach to Lime Street.

Pie in the sky theories from a person living 250 or so miles away. Too many non railway infrastructure problems affecting the lives of local people to benefit a few.

 

[urbophile]

Platforms 1 and 2 cannot be extended further south due to Allerton Junction. To the north all four tracks cross Woolton Road which is a dual carriageway and very busy. Due south of Platform 3/4 is another bridge which takes the CLC under the mainline.

How feasible would it be to extend the platforms north over the bridge? It doesn't look like an impossible task to me. Woolton Road is busy-ish, true, but not so much that a temporary restriction to one lane at a time wouldn't work.

 

[Steelwheels]

How feasible would it be to extend the platforms north over the bridge? It doesn't look like an impossible task to me. Woolton Road is busy-ish, true, but not so much that a temporary restriction to one lane at a time wouldn't work.

The road bridge would have to be demolished and rebuilt as it has been found that it cannot take the weight of regular rail traffic being stationary over it!

 

[Joseph_Locke]

The road bridge would have to be demolished and rebuilt as it has been found that it cannot take the weight of regular rail traffic being stationary over it!

Hmmm, dynamic cases are normally worse than static ... but in this case I think the need to remove the parapets to allow passengers to board trains would probably weaken it badly enough to trigger a new deck.

 

[Geno]

. Photo taken yesterday (28/9) of the progress of the new platforms 7 and 8 at Liverpool Lime Street station.

 

[Geno]

Well that didn't work! I will try to figure out how to actually link the photo from my phone, sorry.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well that didn't work! I will try to figure out how to actually link the photo from my phone, sorry.

I'll add it if you like. Much easier to use the BBCode (from the share option) from a desktop:


Track laid for the new platforms 7 and 8 at Liverpool Lime Street station. by David Kenny, on Flickr

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Coming along nicely and the blockade has not even started yet.

 

[gavin]

Looks like Lime street is shutting again over Christmas replacement buses are running on the 27th some services are starting/terminating at south parkway

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/LIV/2017/12/27/0951?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

[fowler9]

At the end of the day extended the platforms either way at South Parkway would be very problematic and expensive. Not saying it is impossible, just unlikely. Also there is absolutely no where for increased parking nearby. The next few weeks are going to be fun with the current parking spaces in Parkway being massively reduced.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

At the end of the day extended the platforms either way at South Parkway would be very problematic and expensive. Not saying it is impossible, just unlikely. Also there is absolutely no where for increased parking nearby. The next few weeks are going to be fun with the current parking spaces in Parkway being massively reduced.

Surely if parking at Parkway is at such a premium, there's an option to extend upwards? Maybe wait until after the current works, but it would seem to be a no-brainer.

 

[fowler9]

Surely if parking at Parkway is at such a premium, there's an option to extend upwards? Maybe wait until after the current works, but it would seem to be a no-brainer.

It is very compact but again not impossible. It could probably do with another level of parking without trains from London stopping there. Thing is it is currently free parking so all the old arguments about who is going to pay for it would come up.

 

[Holly]

Well yeah, it is an interesting idea. It would be interesting to see it properly planned ...
You could say that it would narrow the WCML down to 2 tracks at that point but the slow lines through there aren't really used a hell of a lot.

Even less used if the stoppers from Crewe run into Central (and beyond) instead of into Lime Street.
It is surely worth an engineering feasibility study.

 

[fowler9]

Even less used if the stoppers from Crewe run into Central (and beyond) instead of into Lime Street.
It is surely worth an engineering feasibility study.

The stoppers from Crewe aren't really stoppers and I'm not really sure how attractive an all shacks from Crewe to Southport is going to be. Especially with the new trains having no toilet and being designed for a pretty much Metro like service. Liverpool to Crewe is around 40 mins on a Pendolino with one stop.

 

[MichaelAMW]

With the blockade beginning this weekend would anyone be kind enough to summarise what is happening over the next few weeks, and what is going to be done later on? I know it's in this thread somewhere but I'd be interested in just seeing a few lines with the basics all in one place. (My own belief is that this time they are doing the platform alterations, including closing 1 and extending 2, and straightening out 6, but no major resignalling at this stage.)

Thanks in advance.

 

[MarkyT]

Pie in the sky theories from a person living 250 or so miles away. Too many non railway infrastructure problems affecting the lives of local people to benefit a few.

It may be pie in the sky but it's only a suggestion and I fail to see where I live being important. Knock it down all you want but please tell me WHAT is wrong with the idea.

 

[The Planner]

North of England route study kicks off soon so things may appear on the Merseyside area in it, the results will be open to consultation.

 

[6Gman]

Even less used if the stoppers from Crewe run into Central (and beyond) instead of into Lime Street.
It is surely worth an engineering feasibility study.

What are these "stoppers" from Crewe of which you speak?

Do you mean the Liverpool - Birminghams? The only service linking these two major cities?

 

[Geno]

I'll add it if you like. Much easier to use the BBCode (from the share option) from a desktop:


Track laid for the new platforms 7 and 8 at Liverpool Lime Street station. by David Kenny, on Flickr

Thanks for that, swt_passenger. Failed with my first attempt to upload a photo to the forum, I will try to get my mid-20th century head around the 21st century technology before trying again. Meanwhile Lime Street station is closed, but I bet Central is an absolute nightmare!

 

[Holly]

Even less used if the stoppers from Crewe run into Central (and beyond) instead of into Lime Street.
It is surely worth an engineering feasibility study.

What are these "stoppers" from Crewe of which you speak?
Do you mean the Liverpool - Birminghams? The only service linking these two major cities? ...

The Birmingham trains are indeed the only stoppers (for example at Hartford) as of today. MarkyT was proposing a different permanent way configuration and that would create new journey opportunities.

And yes, in response to the other poster, suitable replacement rolling stock would be required.

 

[fowler9]

At the end of the day it is never going to happen but it is an interesting discussion. At the end of the day whichever way you try and get the Northern Line to the WCML you are going to be asking many people if you can run trains through their garden.

 

[KevinTurvey]

First day of the blockade. Did anyone use the replacement buses and how smoothly did it work?

I have checked NRE and I am impressed to see services on the Ormskirk-Preston, Wigan-Kirkby lines shown running tomorrow. However there appears no mention of these services in any of the media or handbills, only the replacement buses.

For those doing the full Liverpool-Preston or Liverpool Wigan trips the above services are a vastly better option than a bus from St Helens.

 

[LDECRexile]

First day of the blockade. Did anyone use the replacement buses and how smoothly did it work?

I have checked NRE and I am impressed to see services on the Ormskirk-Preston, Wigan-Kirkby lines shown running tomorrow. However there appears no mention of these services in any of the media or handbills, only the replacement buses.

For those doing the full Liverpool-Preston or Liverpool Wigan trips the above services are a vastly better option than a bus from St Helens.

Ann and I travelled Malton-Liverpool South Parkway-Ainsdale today.

The three car train arrived at Malton full and left full and standing, we had booked seats so we were OK. It was full and standing all the way to LPY.

The on-board staff repeatedly and clearly explained to otherwise Lime St passengers what to do when they got to LPY. At LPY there were plenty of alert-looking staff on show with temporary barriers to guide people where to go.

The 6-car EMU from Platform 5 (not 6) swallowed the customers with ease.

On this sample the Liverpool end of the arrangements worked well.

 

[Chester1]

First day of the blockade. Did anyone use the replacement buses and how smoothly did it work?

I have checked NRE and I am impressed to see services on the Ormskirk-Preston, Wigan-Kirkby lines shown running tomorrow. However there appears no mention of these services in any of the media or handbills, only the replacement buses.

For those doing the full Liverpool-Preston or Liverpool Wigan trips the above services are a vastly better option than a bus from St Helens.

I suspect they are not advertised to avoid them being overloaded. I haven't travelled on either line for several years but I think they are 2-3 platform stations?

 

[fowler9]

I got a rail replacement bus from West Allerton to Parkway and then a Virgin service to Crewe. I was pleasantly surprised at how smoothly it all went, Rush hour on Monday will be different of course. A friend who is a bus driver said teh rail replacements were up the wall but I can't confirm from my experience. In the 20 minutes before the 10:44 Virgin service leaving Parkway all was calm. When I arrived back at Parkway later everything seemed very organised again.

 

[childwallblues]

It may be pie in the sky but it's only a suggestion and I fail to see where I live being important. Knock it down all you want but please tell me WHAT is wrong with the idea.

Hunts Cross currently has five trains an hour into Liverpool. Removing the Merseyrail would leave just one - the stopper to Lime Street.
Replacing Hunts Cross with a new station on the WCML presumably at Woodend Avenue moves the location from a prominently residenial to industrial area. No room to build a car park.
Continuing along the WCML there is housing at Halewood but on one side opposite factories including the Jaguar Land Rover complex.
At Ditton the platforms of the former station still survive and there have been calls to re-open the station as a Park & Ride facility. Problem is the ideal P & R site would have been the old Creosote Works next door but that is now being built on.
On into Widnes the line runs south of the town centre in an industrial area. The current Widnes station is north of the town centre in a residential area with a car park.
On to Warrington there is limited housing each side of Fiddlers Ferry Power Station and into the town centre quite a lot of housing.
At Bank Quay LL there is space to re-instate the station and there is a large railway car park next to it. The problem is that it is a Virgin Trains car park whiches charges Virgin Trains prices!

 

[fowler9]

Meant to mention yesterday. The ticket office at Liverpool South Parkway was unable to sell me a Virgin Return to Crewe.