New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[Olaf]

Yes, that is the plan.

As an aside: The actual quote (in English) is:

"Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe."

... and can only be reliably attributed to a F.S. Perls.

Just goes to show that we can not be confident in what we know.

 

[infobleep]

You don't believe the dross that they produce do you? It's one of the worst and badly written local newspapers going, full of errors and discrepancies than anything else going.

They seem to have had an agenda against SWR from the start. Really pathetic reporting standards and to be quite blunt a paper written by amateurs.

I certainly don't believe them. I like to quote them and then they can be criticised if needs be by others and / or myself.

 

[infobleep]

Most of the problems have been down to NR with signal/TC failures/points failures/COAs/ESRs/TSRs, other TOCs/FOCs.

There has also been a considerable number of trespass incidents as well.

So if you get any of the first 6, you get delays and of course if it goes in late, it comes out late and it gets later & later and later, unless of course you start omitting stops and don't forget to factor in PNBs & cab breaks too and you get an unmitigated shambles.

There has also been train faults into the mix too. Quiet a variety. No leaf delays yet but that will come soon. Hehe.

 

[infobleep]

Maximum journey times may prevent the addition of minutes to some journeys.

Just a possibility.

Do you mean maximum journey times due to other trains being in the way or simply not allow to run slower journeys end to end?

 

[MartinB1]

Most of the problems have been down to NR with signal/TC failures/points failures/COAs/ESRs/TSRs, other TOCs/FOCs.

There has also been a considerable number of trespass incidents as well.

So if you get any of the first 6, you get delays and of course if it goes in late, it comes out late and it gets later & later and later, unless of course you start omitting stops and don't forget to factor in PNBs & cab breaks too and you get an unmitigated shambles.

Last week during one of the evening peaks there were delays, and a failure of the information screens at Waterloo. Passengers were waiting on the concourse for a delayed Dorking. This train ended up leaving completely empty because it wasnt announced properly, Twitter was inundated with angry people. The person manning the twitter feed, said 'apologise this is due to a screen failure' completely seeming to not understand the consequences of this for the people concerned ie having to wait 30 mins for the next Dorking which was also delayed and absolutely rammed pack. Utterly miserable for the fare paying commuters who are having their lives ruined by the daily shambles. This is just one example of where the service just isn't good enough.

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[bb21]

Do you mean maximum journey times due to other trains being in the way or simply not allow to run slower journeys end to end?

Franchise specification.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Last week during one of the evening peaks there were delays, and a failure of the information screens at Waterloo. Passengers were waiting on the concourse for a delayed Dorking. This train ended up leaving completely empty because it wasnt announced properly, Twitter was inundated with angry people. The person manning the twitter feed, said 'apologise this is due to a screen failure' completely seeming to not understand the consequences of this for the people concerned ie having to wait 30 mins for the next Dorking which was also delayed and absolutely rammed pack. Utterly miserable for the fare paying commuters who are having their lives ruined by the daily shambles. This is just one example of where the service just isn't good enough.

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Well not announcing it, is a SWR problem and for that they deserve to be rightly lambasted.

However most of the time it's not an SWR problem and the bi-product of infrastructure failure such as delays you can probably split between the two as NR will be using TDA and SWR will have to deal with it many turns having minimal PNB time and crew's have the right to have their break as it's a legal requirement, like it or not, that in turn impacts on other services and you have a full cascade failure in full swing very quickly.

The only way to recover from this is to remove station calls or cancel the train and run it ECS to the nearest station where you can start back from, such as Epsom/Leatherhead or Effingham Junction.

 

[MartinB1]

Well not announcing it, is a SWR problem and for that they deserve to be rightly lambasted.

However most of the time it's not an SWR problem and the bi-product of infrastructure failure such as delays you can probably split between the two as NR will be using TDA and SWR will have to deal with it many turns having minimal PNB time and crew's have the right to have their break as it's a legal requirement, like it or not, that in turn impacts on other services and you have a full cascade failure in full swing very quickly.

The only way to recover from this is to remove station calls or cancel the train and run it ECS to the nearest station where you can start back from, such as Epsom/Leatherhead or Effingham Junction.

Trust me I understand all of that. There are also issues with their website, delay compensation, faulty ticket machines, 4 coach trains (usually 8 on weekdays) on many suburban lines - meaning these trains are often standing room only.

I do think that their plans are exciting, the highlight for me being the plan to replace 455's and 458's with a completely new train. If Stagecoach had won again we would have been stuck with those ghastly 455's for another 10 years probably. Also improved wifi, toilet on each train (hopefully better maintained), improved wifi, technology to tell passengers which coaches have more available seats etc. I also like the branding, although there isn't much point if we are most of the way through the franchise before it's all done.

The new timetable in theory will good , however it's hard to see currently how the infrastructure will be able to cope with the extra services. At least now if there is any kind of delay there is at least some slack which can be used to mitigate against the delay. NR really need to pull their fingers out or I can't see how the new timetable will work.

I'm not against the new company, however this forum exists to discuss issues such as this. Much better communication with customers is required (the Dorking train episode was completely unacceptable).

It is still unclear what the new company means for frontline staff. 18 month wait for a uniform?!? Even with a consultation period that is a long time bearing in mind the franchise is only 7 years. There are exciting proposals eg a new staff app, and digital devices for frontline staff. Does this invlude drivers getting tablets as is the case with many other TOCs? Maybe I am being impatient, however it feels like there is a lack of information/engagement. It doesn't feel like anything has changed apart from a few of the signs.

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[DelW]

Delays and cancellations on the Portsmouth line again this morning (and probably elsewhere - I've only looked at the Pompey).

I'm going into London tomorrow, and I think I will aim for a train timetabled to arrive an hour before I need to be there, in case tomorrow's as bad. I'm just glad I don't have to commute on SWR, the past month has been dismal for punctuality.

 

[fairysdad]

It is still unclear what the new company means for frontline staff. 18 month wait for a uniform?!? Even with a consultation period that is a long time bearing in mind the franchise is only 7 years.

I think it's 'up to 18 months' - I have seen one or two people in SWR polo shirts. Mostly it has been old SWT uniforms with new SWR badges (eg in the Waterloo ticket office) and new SWR high-vis vests.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Trust me I understand all of that. There are also issues with their website, delay compensation, faulty ticket machines, 4 coach trains (usually 8 on weekdays) on many suburban lines - meaning these trains are often standing room only.

I do think that their plans are exciting, the highlight for me being the plan to replace 455's and 458's with a completely new train. If Stagecoach had won again we would have been stuck with those ghastly 455's for another 10 years probably. Also improved wifi, toilet on each train (hopefully better maintained), improved wifi, technology to tell passengers which coaches have more available seats etc. I also like the branding, although there isn't much point if we are most of the way through the franchise before it's all done.

The new timetable in theory will good , however it's hard to see currently how the infrastructure will be able to cope with the extra services. At least now if there is any kind of delay there is at least some slack which can be used to mitigate against the delay. NR really need to pull their fingers out or I can't see how the new timetable will work.

I'm not against the new company, however this forum exists to discuss issues such as this. Much better communication with customers is required (the Dorking train episode was completely unacceptable).

It is still unclear what the new company means for frontline staff. 18 month wait for a uniform?!? Even with a consultation period that is a long time bearing in mind the franchise is only 7 years. There are exciting proposals eg a new staff app, and digital devices for frontline staff. Does this invlude drivers getting tablets as is the case with many other TOCs? Maybe I am being impatient, however it feels like there is a lack of information/engagement. It doesn't feel like anything has changed apart from a few of the signs.

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I'm afraid nothing I can do about the Dorking train or the announcements, generally they're automatic and run off of the CIS system, which I think (TEW will probably know & correct me if I'm wrong) runs off of Darwin, I know they've been having quite a few issues with that system recently which have required multiple reboots & resets and server changes, so that may well be what the issue is.

But put the complaint in writing or better still an email to the CS department and make sure before you send it that you tick the box that says "Read/Receipt" (depending on email client) before you send it and then you'll know that they've got it/read it when they open it.

 

[MartinB1]

I'm afraid nothing I can do about the Dorking train or the announcements, generally they're automatic and run off of the CIS system, which I think (TEW will probably know & correct me if I'm wrong) runs off of Darwin, I know they've been having quite a few issues with that system recently which have required multiple reboots & resets and server changes, so that may well be what the issue is.

But put the complaint in writing or better still an email to the CS department and make sure before you send it that you tick the box that says "Read/Receipt" (depending on email client) before you send it and then you'll know that they've got it/read it when they open it.

Surely if there is a problem with technology, then it should be arranged for someone to provide manual announcements?

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[infobleep]

Franchise specification.

How fascinating. So if a trran is delay due to leaves, does National Rail pick up the bill, even though a franchise change in maximum journey times might have prevented such a payment being needed?

So does the new franchise specification allow for leaf fall timetable on the Cobham line and or other lines where leaves current fall?

 

[Matt Taylor]

Looking at their website and timetables it's leaf fall, always interests me that on the Portsmouth Direct leaf fall only effects the up line and not the down - certainly timetable wise - clever trees

On the down line most services get more than five minutes waiting time at Havant Junction which covers the leaf fall problems.

 

[swt_passenger]

So does the new franchise specification allow for leaf fall timetable on the Cobham line and or other lines where leaves current fall?

Delays will be worked out against the altered leaf fall timings, just like they are worked out against engineering works timetables when they are in force.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

On the down line most services get more than five minutes waiting time at Havant Junction which covers the leaf fall problems.

Or you can just coast all the way from Buriton/Bolinge hill and not wait at Havant Junction.

 

[infobleep]

Delays will be worked out against the altered leaf fall timings, just like they are worked out against engineering works timetables when they are in force.

But if they had to shorten the journey times in the new franchise, would there be allowances for leaf fall and if not what impact would that have on delay payments?

 

[dlj83]

Just asked at Vauxhall at the ticket office for a new plastic ticket holder, i was told to buy a ticket or they was sold for £1.

Before the new franchise it was never a problem is this something new?

 

[infobleep]

Good example of how 30 minute delays can occur fron the smallest thing and how the railways can't win whatever they do at times.

The 18.49 ECS Woking to Farnham had a fault. Thus it left 7 minutes late at almost 18.57.

This meant the 18.54 to Basingstoke was held outside the station. It was already 3 minutes late at this point. The Portsmouth Harbour train was also held on an adjacent line. Usually that arrives after the Basingstoke train and mostly departs late but at the last minute the signalman pathed that it no platform 4, once the Alton train had left. Shame the Basingstoke train couldn't have been pathed into platform 4 but maybe it's not possible at times point or its not a good idea for other reasons.

That meant the Portsmouth train left Woking, 2 minutes late at 19.00. The Basingstoke train left just over 8 minutes late at 19.02, due to the train fault and the fact that it had to wait for thr Portsmouth Harbour train to clear the junction ahead. If it had been on platform 4, it wouldn't be in the way. However their is an Alton train that departs 18.52 from Woking and that had departed a minute late.

Had the Portsmouth Harbour train been made to wait, the Basingstoke train would have been less delayed but the Portsmouth Harbour train more delayed. The Basingstoke train seems to have pathing time south of Woking. Not sure about the Portsmouth train but that has other junctions and trains to interact with beyond Woking.

For the greater good of other trains, it might thus be better to let the Portsmouth train go first. However one person claimed they would now be 30 minutes late because despite running they still missed the connecting train. It is an official connection too. I assume they were coming from Surbtion, which only has two fast trains an hour to Woking at that time of the evening rather than the 4 fasts it has after 20.00.

The railways as a whole can't win in such circumstances. Whatever they do, someone will be delayed. At least the man can claim delay repay now, assuming he genuinely is 30 minutes late to his destination and not something like 29 minutes late. So that at least is an improvement for him financially.

I don't see how South Western Railway can fix such issues. They will always occur now and again on a busy railway.

 

[swt_passenger]

But if they had to shorten the journey times in the new franchise, would there be allowances for leaf fall and if not what impact would that have on delay payments?

I don't see why leaf fall alterations wouldn't apply to any future shortened journey times. Surely they'd just be a planned alteration as now, but relative to a different baseline timetable. I reckon you are overcomplicating this.

 

[infobleep]

I don't see why leaf fall alterations wouldn't apply to any future shortened journey times. Surely they'd just be a planned alteration as now, but relative to a different baseline timetable. I reckon you are overcomplicating this.

But further up thread BB21 said, with reference to thr Portsmouth line, perhaps leaf fall timetable couldn't be introduced due to maximum journey times. Surely if it's a planned alterations, maximum journey times wouldn't come into it but he said perhaps they do

So if the maximum journey time on the Cobham line was reduced, I can't remember if it's due to be, wouldn't that impact on leaf fall timetables?

I know I'm applying one possible instance to another but that's why I'm asking the question.

 

[infobleep]

I see their is or was signalling fault around Haslemere today. The 7.10 to Waterloo had to depart 11 minutes early, and faster trains queue behind it. I assume one platform out of use.

I've come across this once before, although I'm sure it's not the only times it has occurred.

It always makes for interesting reading on National Rail Enquiries app. They said the train was being delayed due to a signalling fault but also that it had departed Farncombe on time, the time was 7.20 when I saw that and the train wasn't scheduled to depart Farncombe until 7.28. The system can't handle early departures. It can handle early arrivals at terminal stations however.

It is such a rare occurrence though. To be fair the train then did wait at Guildford and depart Guildford two minutes late, so it was an an advanced warning of future delays at last.

Haa there been an increase in infrastructure faults outside of the Waterloo works, since the Waterloo works have ended or is it just that combined with the Waterloo the signalling issues are greater than usual?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I see their is or was signalling fault around Haslemere today. The 7.10 to Waterloo had to depart 11 minutes early, and faster trains queue behind it. I assume one platform out of use.

I've come across this once before, although I'm sure it's not the only times it has occurred.

It always makes for interesting reading on National Rail Enquiries app. They said the train was being delayed due to a signalling fault but also that it had departed Farncombe on time, the time was 7.20 when I saw that and the train wasn't scheduled to depart Farncombe until 7.28. The system can't handle early departures. It can handle early arrivals at terminal stations however.

It is such a rare occurrence though. To be fair the train then did wait at Guildford and depart Guildford two minutes late, so it was an an advanced warning of future delays at last.

Haa there been an increase in infrastructure faults outside of the Waterloo works, since the Waterloo works have ended or is it just that combined with the Waterloo the signalling issues are greater than usual?

According to NRE atm it's a points problem at Haslemere:

Due to a points problem at Haslemere fewer trains are able to run on some lines towards London bound.

What's Going On:
Train services running through this station may be cancelled, delayed by up to 15 minutes or revised. Disruption is expected until 12:00.

What We're Doing About It:
The South Western Railway control room had received a report of a defective set of points in the Haslemere area. Trains are currently unable to run through platform 3 at Haslemere. Services may be required to leave earlier than normal, however, will leave on time at Guildford. This is to allow all services to run through Haslemere.

Engineers are en route to the site to investigate the fault.

To reduce the delays to trains, some services may have to be altered or revised at short notice.

 

[pompeyfan]

The Facebook page ‘Southern Electric Group’ are suggesting there will be a timetable consultation for the Dec 18 T/T going live this Friday, they also suggest that stations on longer distance routes may have stops pulled to achieve the quicker journey times.

 

[swt_passenger]

The Facebook page ‘Southern Electric Group’ are suggesting there will be a timetable consultation for the Dec 18 T/T going live this Friday, they also suggest that stations on longer distance routes may have stops pulled to achieve the quicker journey times.

So we'll get yet another round of 'surprise surprise' from BBC South and local media outlets, as all the stuff that was in the franchise consultation and then the ITT gets re-hashed, and everyone pretends that the service spec published with the ITT didn't ever really happen.

As we've discussed on here before, removal of stops in long distance trains was shown in the ITT, as was reduction to one Waterloo - Weymouth through train per hour. It shouldn't be news at this stage, but I bet it will be treated as such.

I don't understand why we have to have a franchise consultation, then publish an ITT, then bid against that ITT, then incoming franchisee sends in a track access application to NR/ORR that reflects the winning bid. Then we have another public consultation? It's little wonder nothing ever happens on time...

 

[pompeyfan]

So we'll get yet another round of 'surprise surprise' from BBC South and local media outlets, as all the stuff that was in the franchise consultation and then the ITT gets re-hashed, and everyone pretends that the service spec published with the ITT didn't ever really happen.

As we've discussed on here before, removal of stops in long distance trains was shown in the ITT, as was reduction to one Waterloo - Weymouth through train per hour. It shouldn't be news at this stage, but I bet it will be treated as such.

I don't understand why we have to have a franchise consultation, then publish an ITT, then bid against that ITT, then incoming franchisee sends in a track access application to NR/ORR that reflects the winning bid. Then we have another public consultation? It's little wonder nothing ever happens on time...

Sorry I must have missed the ITT bit saying station calls would be dropped, do you have any more details regarding this? And in particular how this will affect the PDL and SWML?

 

[HH]

Just asked at Vauxhall at the ticket office for a new plastic ticket holder, i was told to buy a ticket or they was sold for £1.

Before the new franchise it was never a problem is this something new?

Little chance that this is a new policy introduced by First/MTR in my opinion; they have plenty of important stuff to be getting on with. Probably was a policy already in place, but only intermittently applied by staff having a bad hair day.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sorry I must have missed the ITT bit saying station calls would be dropped, do you have any more details regarding this? And in particular how this will affect the PDL and SWML?

It's in the calling pattern tables in the accompanying spreadsheet I have linked to previously, in the notes below the servcie pattern diagrams.

If you go back here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=3070743&postcount=2094 I mentioned it a few posts later...

 

[Goldfish62]

I do think that their plans are exciting, the highlight for me being the plan to replace 455's and 458's with a completely new train. If Stagecoach had won again we would have been stuck with those ghastly 455's for another 10 years probably. Also improved wifi, toilet on each train (hopefully better maintained), improved wifi, technology to tell passengers which coaches have more available seats etc. I also like the branding, although there isn't much point if we are most of the way through the franchise before it's all done.


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Stagecoach also bid on the basis of dumping the 455s and 456s, but not the 458s or 707s.

You would have also seen similar timetable proposals as the frequencies and maximum journey times were in the tender specification.

 

[Goldfish62]

Last week during one of the evening peaks there were delays, and a failure of the information screens at Waterloo. Passengers were waiting on the concourse for a delayed Dorking. This train ended up leaving completely empty because it wasnt announced properly, Twitter was inundated with angry people. The person manning the twitter feed, said 'apologise this is due to a screen failure' completely seeming to not understand the consequences of this for the people concerned ie having to wait 30 mins for the next Dorking which was also delayed and absolutely rammed pack. Utterly miserable for the fare paying commuters who are having their lives ruined by the daily shambles. This is just one example of where the service just isn't good enough.

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Very poor, but this happened regularly under SWT.