Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

[ScottDarg]

The broken down test train at Cadder was the PLPR train or plain line pattern recognition test train. Which would you believe tests plain line track. Moved on the following day after a fitter repaired the locomotive.

I see, wasn't sure if it was for the Edinburgh - Glasgow or just the usual PLPR train as I only caught it at the corner of my eye. Thanks!

 

[Carntyne]

Do we think the 380s will get a chance before the 385s come in?

Yeah.

 

[route101]

Yeah.

Will be interesting to see , maybe mixture of 380s and 170s

 

[snowball]

Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party): To ask the Scottish Government what the cost of the Edinburgh Glasgow Improvement Programme has been to date; what the final cost will be, and how this compares with the original estimate.
(S5W-11272)

Humza Yousaf: The original estimate for the Edinburgh Glasgow Improvement Programme (EGIP) as per the Final Business Case published on 27 January 2014 confirmed £742 million anticipated final costs (AFC). Following the EY Major Projects Review in September 2016 the Network Rail AFC for EGIP was £795 million. I will provide the Scottish Parliament an update when I have confidence in the projected final costs given to me by Network Rail- a reclassified body with the Department for Transport. The figure could change as a result of the commercial discussions currently underway between Network Rail and its contractors. The cost of work done on the project up to 17 September 2017, as reported by Network Rail, is £727 million.

 

[clc]

Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party): To ask the Scottish Government what the cost of the Edinburgh Glasgow Improvement Programme has been to date; what the final cost will be, and how this compares with the original estimate.
(S5W-11272)

Humza Yousaf: The original estimate for the Edinburgh Glasgow Improvement Programme (EGIP) as per the Final Business Case published on 27 January 2014 confirmed £742 million anticipated final costs (AFC). Following the EY Major Projects Review in September 2016 the Network Rail AFC for EGIP was £795 million. I will provide the Scottish Parliament an update when I have confidence in the projected final costs given to me by Network Rail- a reclassified body with the Department for Transport. The figure could change as a result of the commercial discussions currently underway between Network Rail and its contractors. The cost of work done on the project up to 17 September 2017, as reported by Network Rail, is £727 million.

Add in the £100 million or so still to be spent on Queen St and it's clear the final figure will be well over £800 million.

 

[najaB]

Add in the £100 million or so still to be spent on Queen St and it's clear the final figure will be well over £800 million.

Except, as far as I'm aware, Queen Street redevelopment isn't part of the main EGIP budget.

 

[InOban]

Yes and no. The decision to drop/postpone grade separation at Greenhill, and the Almond Chord, reduced the possible frequency to four/hour. Growth required longer trains, so longer platforms, so rebuilding Queen Street......

 

[najaB]

Yes and no. The decision to drop/postpone grade separation at Greenhill, and the Almond Chord, reduced the possible frequency to four/hour. Growth required longer trains, so longer platforms, so rebuilding Queen Street......

I know the platform extension was part of EGIP, but the new facade, etc. isn't strictly required for EGIP and was approved separately - I was under the impression that the budget is separate.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I know the platform extension was part of EGIP, but the new facade, etc. isn't strictly required for EGIP and was approved separately - I was under the impression that the budget is separate.

It is necessary, as the platform extensions required for 8 car operation mean the front of the station would need to be heavily reconfigured. Presumably the design process found out that there wasn't an acceptable intermediate where 8 car operation was available with minimal change to the existing station. Moving one thing, while staying within the allowable standards, might have necessitated moving another thing and another until the whole lot had to come down and be replaced.

 

[InOban]

Agree. The enlargement and rebuilding of QS will in the long run prove to be an excellent investment. The 6-coach limit so prevalent in Scotland makes the rail network very uneconomic.

 

[najaB]

Agree. The enlargement and rebuilding of QS will in the long run prove to be an excellent investment.

Totally agreed. I was just making the point that it's my understanding that at least a portion of the £100M budget for the Queen Street rebuild was budgeted separately from the main EPIG project.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes and no. The decision to drop/postpone grade separation at Greenhill, and the Almond Chord, reduced the possible frequency to four/hour. Growth required longer trains, so longer platforms, so rebuilding Queen Street......

These decisions were surely made before 2014, which was the budget quoted in the previous post. Not sure if that means it includes Queen Street too. I would hope that the politician would not be so disingenuous as to quote original and revised budgets that covered different scopes.

 

[Altnabreac]

These decisions were surely made before 2014, which was the budget quoted in the previous post. Not sure if that means it includes Queen Street too. I would hope that the politician would not be so disingenuous as to quote original and revised budgets that covered different scopes.

The 2014 AFC certainly didn't include Greenhill, Cory, Almond Chord etc. Those were dropped earlier as estimated costs headed north of £1Bn.

Not certain how much of the Queen St works were included in EGIP. Certainly the platform extensions are needed to deliver EGIP but a simpler Queen St programme could probably have been devised that allowed 8 car operation without the full rebuild.

Though it's tricky to assign costs to a theoretical rebuild that didn't actually happen.

 

[najaB]

Not certain how much of the Queen St works were included in EGIP. Certainly the platform extensions are needed to deliver EGIP but a simpler Queen St programme could probably have been devised that allowed 8 car operation without the full rebuild.

Certainly, the timing of public announcements adds credence to the idea that the two were separate - the switch to longer rather than more frequent trains was public knowledge at least a couple of years before the complete rebuild of Queen Street.

 

[snowball]

The 2014 AFC certainly didn't include Greenhill, Cory, Almond Chord etc. Those were dropped earlier as estimated costs headed north of £1Bn.

Sorry to be dense but what's Cory?

 

[marks87]

It'll be an incorrect autocorrect of 'Croy'.

Someone put a sign up on the noticeboard at my work that reads "You probably correct autocorrect more than autocorrect corrects you". It's difficult to argue.

 

[clc]

This press release confirmed that the £742m anticipated cost of EGIP included £120m for Queen St - see Notes for Editors:-

https://www.transport.gov.scot/news...trification-on-track-to-rebuild-queen-street/

 

[snowball]

What was previously proposed at Croy that now isn't?

 

[InOban]

A facility to turn round trains. If they had gone for trains every ten minutes then the Bishopriggs and lenzie trains would have have had to terminate there.

 

[gsnedders]

Were the platform extensions always part of EGIP? I presume the original plan for 6tph didn't call for any? While the Queen Street redevelopment has been accounted for separately, what about the platform extensions elsewhere?

 

[clc]

Discussion about East Kilbride line, Scottish Parliament 22 June 2017:

"Graham Simpson (Central Scotland) (Con): I met ScotRail recently and was assured that the line would be up to full carriage capacity over the next few months. What is required is for the whole of the line to be two tracks, rather than one part being one track—that is what affects the capacity. Will the minister tell us the timescales for getting that work done and for electrification?
Humza Yousaf: The double-tracking will be via the city deal and it is for the city deal partners to take that forward and bring it before the Government as part of the city deal package.

On additional capacity on the East Kilbride line, ScotRail is very aware that the line faces overcrowding issues and sees resolving the issue as a priority. I give Graham Simpson the Government’s assurance that we understand that overcrowding on the line is not acceptable. The train operator and the Government have given those assurances and, if the member wishes, I am happy to write with more details as electrification comes to the service. "

Page 3: http://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=11023&mode=pdf

I'm confused by the Minister's comments. Ive studied the City Deal Agreement and nowhere does it mention double tracking the East Kilbride line. Did he misread his brief?

Going by the Minister's comments above and Linda Fabiani's comments here I think the Scottish Government wants the new SNP council to fund double tracking of the East Kilbride line using City Deal money earmarked for road improvements by the previous Labour administration:-

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/calls-east-kilbride-electrification-timetable-11212965

 

[Altnabreac]

Lots of masts erected between Fauldhouse and West Calder on the Shotts line.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Lots of masts erected between Fauldhouse and West Calder on the Shotts line.

Outstanding- the Scots don't mess around
(my late uncle was born in Glasgow and my aunt in Penicuik Midlothian - both taught at George Herriots school.)

 

[Carntyne]

Messed about a lot with EGIP / SDA. Shotts seems to be going extremely well however.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Messed about a lot with EGIP / SDA. Shotts seems to be going extremely well however.

We have to hope Carillion's losses and profits warning doesn't impact the project (as it did on the NW project with Balfour Beatty).
Rail isn't identified as a problem area for Carillion, but the information is rather vague.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41439274

The firm reported a first-half loss of £1.15bn and said it had taken an impairment charge of £134m on its UK and Canadian construction businesses.
It had also made provision of £200m for losses on its support services contracts.
This is on top of an £845m write-off announced in July

 

[route101]

Messed about a lot with EGIP / SDA. Shotts seems to be going extremely well however.

About 18 months till electric services use the line i thinkm hopefully it gets a proper half hourly service

 

[mcmad]

The wires at the Glasgow end are now continuous onto the existing wires around Springburn so may see the first test trains shortly with any luck.

I assume that means that the initial section proving was successful.

 

[ScottDarg]

The wires at the Glasgow end are now continuous onto the existing wires around Springburn so may see the first test trains shortly with any luck.

I assume that means that the initial section proving was successful.

67023/027 came up today with a test train today which I'm led to believe is for EGIP.

Working is tomorrow night and in to the small hours of Tuesday but it looks to be testing Linlithgow to Newbridge Junction only (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00107/2017/10/09/advanced).

 

[Peter0124]

Shotts Line – 2019

• Holytown – Midcalder junction

Committed scheme with December 2019 completion date specified in the 2013 Transport Scotland Rail Electrification Programme. Electrification of this route will enable diversion of services to Glasgow Central low level, freeing up capacity at the high level station.

So now both Central and Queen street low levels will have direct services towards Edinburgh?

 

[Altnabreac]

So now both Central and Queen street low levels will have direct services towards Edinburgh?

Maybe. We haven't seen any timetables for Shotts line post electrification.

It is only the 1tph stopping service that would be likely to be diverted to Central Low Level.

In my view though they would be better having a complete rethink of services here. I'd like to see 2tph semi fast on the eastern section, with one of them heading south at Holytown to provide Motherwell and Hamilton with a fast Edinburgh service.

Shotts to Central Low Level would be a 1tph stopping service reversing in Shotts.

You might also want to run a 1tph Edinburgh - West Calder stopping service if you could find a path for it.