Forgotten Senior Rail card. Northern rail threats.

[goldenoldie]

On 22 April, my OH and I were intending to travel from Dinting (nr Glossop) to Chester for the day. We'd bought the tickets 2 days in advance as Dinting isn't always manned. We forgot to take our Senior Rail Cards.

On the Manchester to Chester leg, the guard asked for our SR Cards - we had left them at home. He said he would have to levy the full fare. We refused to pay especially when he implied we had bought the tickets fraudulently. He wouldn't even look at alternative evidence of age and ID.

We told him we would rather get off the train which we did at Navigation Road. He said he would give me a receipt for my ticket and issued a ticket from Glossop to Navigation Road at zero fare.

We now know that we should have ensured we had the cards but the attitude stank so we complained including copies of our rail cards. No answer whatsoever for nearly 4 weeks. They now have threatened us with prosecution. We have, as requested by them, forwarded our rail cards to the Debt Recovery and Prosecution team - they say they will return them immediately.

2 issues - rank bad customer service but, given that we agreed to leave the train and given that the guard had issued me with a valid ticket to cover the journey from Dinting to where we got off, have they any grounds for prosecution at all?

 

[djw1981]

The 'official advice' I got from ATOC and various ticket office staff and guards when this happened was to pay the full fare then send the used (full fare tickets) and the unused (discounted) ticket and railcard to the company. I received a refund of the excess. It was explained that because if the guard allows travel on discounted tickets where the railcard is not present, and a Revenue Protection Inspector of Guard manager etc is on the train and find s this then the guard will be disciplined.

You have to play by their rules if you break them!

 

[323235]

not a good idea to complain about things like this as it usually gets you in deeper trouble
as for forgetting your railcards,i'm afraid you should of infact been charged full fare or an excess and should of paid this
you cannot use railcard discounted tickets unless you have a railcard and it is in date,whatever the reason for forgetting it is.
whilst I sympathise with your situation,unfortunately there's no let up
They do have grounds for prosecution because you refused to pay the excess or full fare,whichever the rules require you to do, so you were therefore travelling without a valid ticket

if it were me id have excessed the tickets as soon as I realised what had happened to avoid this kind of hostile situation

Then you could go down the route described above and claimed it all back.

 

[djw1981]

If I recall correctly, a photocopy of your railcard is not valid either, and will be treated as no railcard. To avoid losing it, try keeping it in your wallet, especially if you use it often.

 

[glynn80]

On 22 April, my OH and I were intending to travel from Dinting (nr Glossop) to Chester for the day. We'd bought the tickets 2 days in advance as Dinting isn't always manned. We forgot to take our Senior Rail Cards.

On the Manchester to Chester leg, the guard asked for our SR Cards - we had left them at home. He said he would have to levy the full fare. We refused to pay especially when he implied we had bought the tickets fraudulently. He wouldn't even look at alternative evidence of age and ID.

We told him we would rather get off the train which we did at Navigation Road. He said he would give me a receipt for my ticket and issued a ticket from Glossop to Navigation Road at zero fare.

We now know that we should have ensured we had the cards but the attitude stank so we complained including copies of our rail cards. No answer whatsoever for nearly 4 weeks. They now have threatened us with prosecution. We have, as requested by them, forwarded our rail cards to the Debt Recovery and Prosecution team - they say they will return them immediately.

2 issues - rank bad customer service but, given that we agreed to leave the train and given that the guard had issued me with a valid ticket to cover the journey from Dinting to where we got off, have they any grounds for prosecution at all?

Unfortunately in this circumstance, you and your companion were in the wrong.

When you purchased the Senior Railcard, you would have signed agreeing to the Railcard's terms and conditions (http://www.senior-railcard.co.uk/terms-and-conditions), one of these states:

5. You must carry your Railcard with you on your journey and when asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard. If you fail to do so, you will be required to pay the full price Standard or First Class Single fare as appropriate for your journey as if no ticket was purchased before starting the journey and in some cases a Penalty Fare. This does not apply if there was no ticket office at the station at which you began your journey or if the ticket office was closed and there was no ticket machine from which you could buy a discounted ticket.

Now on the Manchester to Chester leg, the ticket office would have been open and their would have been ticket machines available to issue Senior Railcard discounted tickets. Therefore you were liable to pay the full price fare for your appropriate journey.

The guard therefore did nothing incorrect by asking you to purchase a full fare ticket, he was perhaps heavy handed when dealing with you and that (depending on the exact circumstances) isn't really excusable. But that doesn't detract from the fact you were travelling with tickets that were invalid and that he could not accept without a Railcard.

Now what would you have suggested the guard do? Guard's can't accept every Tom, Dick or Harry's word that they have a valid Railcard at home, otherwise the system would collapse, it is irrelevant you were of age to receive the Railcard, that does not prove you have paid £24.00 to obtain the discounted fares.

You did however do the sensible thing by getting off at the next station and in my opinion the guard was very lenient issuing a zero fare to the next station. He would have been well within his rights to charge you the fare to the next station, from Manchester, or take your name and address with which to send you the bill for the fare.

Now complaining to Northern, again wasn't not really warranted in my opinion. I realise the guard was not as professional as you would have liked him to be, but you were travelling invalidly and refusing to pay the correct fare.

Prosecution wise, it is difficult to say without all the facts. Northern will be likely to prosecute under Railway Byelaw 18. (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/regs/railwaysbyelaws.pdf)

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

Legislation also useful to Northern is Section 5 of The Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?activeTextDocId=1061373)

5.Penalty for avoiding payment of fare.

(1) Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started, or give the officer or servant his name and address; and in case of default shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 1 on the standard scale.

(2) If a passenger having failed either to produce, or if requested to deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or to pay his fare, refuses or fails on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, to give his name and address, any officer of the company may detain him until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law.

(3) If any person—
(a) Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or
(b) Having paid his fare for a certain distance, knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond that distance without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or
(c) Having failed to pay his fare, gives in reply to a request by an officer of a railway company a false name or address, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale, or, in the case of a second or subsequent offence, either to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale, or in the discretion of the court to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months.

(4) The liability of an offender to punishment under this section shall not prejudice the recovery of any fare payable by him.

In this circumstance I don't believe any of the conditions under Railway Byelaw 18(3) apply to you and therefore it looks like you would be liable for prosecution under 18(1). It depends on whether the guard asked for your name and address and whether your refused to give this. If this occured they have a strong case against you both under both the Railway Byelaws and Regulation of Railways Act 1889. If this didn't occur and the guard "just" asked you to pay the correct fare and in reply, you said you were getting off at the next stop instead, then it isn't as clear cut. The fact the guard issued you a zero fare ticket for the journey to Navigation Road does lie in your favour and a prosecution in the second circumstance probably wouldn't stand up for this reason. Although a point to bear in mind is that this ticket the guard issued, wouldn't have covered your journey from Dinting to Manchester and you may still be liable for that section of your journey.

Another point to remember is for a prosecution to be successful under The Regulation of Railways Act 1889, it had to be proved that the passenger intended to avoid paying. This has often been difficult as most passengers without tickets were willing to pay if they were challenged, but did not pay if they were not challenged. Unfortunately for yourselves this is not the case under the Railway Byelaws which seem to have much more lax conditions for prosecution. Currently, breaches of byelaws are prosecuted in a Magistrates' Court. The punishment is a fine, generally between £500 and £2,500


PS. I have never heard of guard's issuing zero-fare tickets in circumstances like this, it would be interesting if you could describe what the ticket looked like.

 

[yorkie]

The Railways have special laws which, basically, state you are in the wrong and can be given a criminal record if you make an honest mistake. The train companies can absolutely scam you by charging excessively high fares unfairly (e.g. A to C costing a lot more than A to B + B to C, etc) and this is entirely legal.

If Northern take it to court, ensure you have a good lawyer as Northern will do! They have a history of pursuing people over sums as low as about 30p.

 

[djw1981]

Scenario: You are told that due to your age / medical condition you can get 1/3 off an item at tesco if you take a voucher into the store when you buy the product. If you went into tesco without the voucher, and get to the checkout, the cashier will not give you the discount without the voucher. If you only leave payment for the discounted amount and leave anyway, you will be detained by store security staff and you will be reported to the Police.

There is a mechanism in place on the railways for dealing with forgotten railcards. You failed to follow it, even when the guard explained it. Going to the ticket office before boarding will always look better to the company as you realised your mistake (or if the discount is more than £24 you can just obtain a new railcard).

 

[mrcheek]

Scenario: You are told that due to your age / medical condition you can get 1/3 off an item at tesco if you take a voucher into the store when you buy the product. If you went into tesco without the voucher, and get to the checkout, the cashier will not give you the discount without the voucher. If you only leave payment for the discounted amount and leave anyway, you will be detained by store security staff and you will be reported to the Police.

There is a mechanism in place on the railways for dealing with forgotten railcards. You failed to follow it, even when the guard explained it. Going to the ticket office before boarding will always look better to the company as you realised your mistake (or if the discount is more than £24 you can just obtain a new railcard).

I like this example!
Theres another thread here somewhere with somebody complaining that he was charged extra for his ticket as his railcard had expired, and frankly, Im sick of people complaining. what makes these people think they are in some way above the law, and that rules do not apply to them? Is a railcard really so heavy that its awkward to carry around with you?
The rules are simple. If you want to use a discount ticket, make sure you have the valid discount card with you. if you dont, then frankly I think a ticket collector (or whatever theyre called these days!) is duty bound to treat you as if you were a fare evader, and apply the appropriate penalty.
Complaining about the ticket collectors attitude is pathetic. The man is doing his job, and doing it well.
And I bet the person at the top of this thread would be the first to complain if some "young hooligan" got on the train without a valid ticket!

 

[djw1981]

I like this example!
Theres another thread here somewhere with somebody complaining that he was charged extra for his ticket as his railcard had expired,

If I drive my car with an expired tax disc, I will be fined. I may have the new (valid) one at home but if I am not displaying it, I am breaking the law.

Interestingly, with CCTV in buses, seniors who forget their 'free bus pass' are now being charged full fare because the bus company and/or the council do random CCTV monitoring and if the card is not shown to the driver, and no fare was charged, the driver is disciplined.

With smartcards this may become an obsolete issue.

 

[goldenoldie]

In all my correspondence on this matter, I have accepted that we should have had the cards. We didn't read the small print.

Our complaint was about the attitude of the guard. Indeed had his attitude been less offensive we would probably have paid the excess without demur.

One poster says I would have been the first to complain about others non payment. Indeed it is the random nature of Northern Rail's checks that galls me. They are conspicuously absent when the trains are full or when football fans are present. I have never evaded a fare in my life personally.

Whether my complaint was justified or not, is it acceptable for a company to simply ignore a complaint as Northern Rail have done here?

Anyway, thanks for the advice given so far. Very helpful.

I am still interested in the aspect of prosecuting me, if indeed that is what they do, when they have issued me with a ticket from Glossop to Navigation Road endorsed zero fare. This was a standard ticket endorsed for travel from Glossop to Navigation Road. It seems to me that this has, in effect, legitimised my journey. Perhpas the guard, despite his offensive attitude, has done me a favour after all.

 

[clagmonster]

To avoid problems in future, why not keep your railcard and tickets together.
I am a holder of a YP railcard, and I always carry it in the same wallet as my tickets, and everytime I renew I read the conditions I am signing up to, it is quite clear that if you do not present the railcard with your ticket you are liable for the full standard open fare.
Incidentally, when did you realise that you did not have your railcard? If it was before this ticket inspection, then you should really have seen a member of staff, preferably in a station booking hall as soon as you realised.

 

[90019]

If I drive my car with an expired tax disc, I will be fined. I may have the new (valid) one at home but if I am not displaying it, I am breaking the law.

Technically true, but a car around the corner from me disagrees.

Currently it has no valid tax disc, but a note expaining that it does have valid tax and that the DVLA are sending the new tax disc, and the police haven't clamped it.

 

[djw1981]

Can you prove they have ignored it? The past 4 weeks have included one bank holiday and your letter will take 2-3 days to reach them, so they have had approx 3 working weeks. Northern do not have a timescale for responses listed on their website (some TOCs do as part of their passengers charter) http://www.northernrail.org/northern/passengercharter/pdfs/passengers_charter.pdf. Also they may have had to identify the guard on the service from the tickets you sent them, staff rosters etc, and speak to him for his side of the encounter prior to responding to you. This could easily take 2 weeks dependent upon the shift patterns of the guard, and longer if any holiday was involved. Some TOCs do send you a postcard to say when they have received your complaint and that it is being looked into, others do not.

Your suggestion about his attitude is just illogical. He has offered you a way to legitimise your journey, which you have declined because you tried to protest your innocence despite clearly being in the wrong.

The alternative proof of age and ID is meaningless. The tickets are not linked to a name or ID, not even your railcard number.

If you want you can contact Passenger Focus - the Railways watchdog
Telephone: 08453 022 022 Textphone: 0845 850 1354
Passenger Focus
Freepost
PO Box 4257
Manchester
M60 3AR
Web site: www.passengerfocus.org.uk Email: info@passengerfocus.org.uk

They may also be able to give you information about what legal steps the company could take.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Technically true, but a car around the corner from me disagrees.

Currently it has no valid tax disc, but a note expaining that it does have valid tax and that the DVLA are sending the new tax disc, and the police haven't clamped it.

Unless parked outside a police station, the police rarely do clamp them (better things to do normally) unless they are causing an obstruction or accident risk..... the DVLA hit squad may do, then iow the car away and crush it.....

 

[goldenoldie]

To avoid problems in future, why not keep your railcard and tickets together.
I am a holder of a YP railcard, and I always carry it in the same wallet as my tickets, and everytime I renew I read the conditions I am signing up to, it is quite clear that if you do not present the railcard with your ticket you are liable for the full standard open fare.
Incidentally, when did you realise that you did not have your railcard? If it was before this ticket inspection, then you should really have seen a member of staff, preferably in a station booking hall as soon as you realised.

Only when asked for them. The problem is we have tended to buy tickets in advance because we usually drive to the station which isn't always manned. We will, of course, ensure we carry them at all times from here on in. This was the first time we have been asked to produce them. In retrospect, that might be why the guard asked to see them as the tickets were purchased 2 days before travel.

 

[90019]

Unless parked outside a police station, the police rarely do clamp them

They have around here before, most recently was a couple of months ago.
In fact, it was in almost exactly the same place.
Also, the car is being driven in town.

 

[djw1981]

They have around here before, most recently was a couple of months ago.
In fact, it was in almost exactly the same place.
Also, the car is being driven in town.

http://www.lbp.police.uk/contact/index.asp
# telephone our Communications Centre staff on 0131 311 3131
# Phone Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111

 

[Mojo]

Only when asked for them. The problem is we have tended to buy tickets in advance because we usually drive to the station which isn't always manned. We will, of course, ensure we carry them at all times from here on in. This was the first time we have been asked to produce them. In retrospect, that might be why the guard asked to see them as the tickets were purchased 2 days before travel.

Of course - you do realise that you can pay on board (assuming there is no ticket machine) where the ticket office is closed - so unless you are buying to avoid queues at the ticket barrier it might be worth avoiding the hassle in future.

 

[90019]

http://www.lbp.police.uk/contact/index.asp
# telephone our Communications Centre staff on 0131 311 3131
# Phone Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111

They will have seen it, and obviously have no issues with it.

 

[Mojo]

http://www.lbp.police.uk/contact/index.asp
# telephone our Communications Centre staff on 0131 311 3131
# Phone Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111

This might be a more suitable channel: http://dvla.gov.uk/onlineservices/report_unlicensed.aspx?ext=dg

 

[theblackwatch]

You can also check the actual startus of the vehicle's tax at http://www.taxdisc.direct.gov.uk/Ev...ework.internal.refresh&pageid=Vehicle+Enquiry

 

[glynn80]

In all my correspondence on this matter, I have accepted that we should have had the cards. We didn't read the small print.

Our complaint was about the attitude of the guard. Indeed had his attitude been less offensive we would probably have paid the excess without demur.

You see this is a problem. It is not up to you to decide that the guard's attitude was not up to standard and thus you did not have to abide by the laws set in place that surround this issue.

There is no exemption from the laws of the land because the enforcer was discurteous to you when enforcing said laws.

One poster says I would have been the first to complain about others non payment. Indeed it is the random nature of Northern Rail's checks that galls me. They are conspicuously absent when the trains are full or when football fans are present. I have never evaded a fare in my life personally.

Normally when trains are full it can be nigh on impossible for guards to walk through and check tickets and even attempting to do so would cause passenger fury. Also with regard to football matches, normally large scale barrier operations are put in place at the closest station to the football stadium and this is when, fan's rail tickets will be inspected, for pretty much the same reasons as above with guards being unable, or it being unsafe to, push through packed corridors of rowdy fans, checking tickets.

I am still interested in the aspect of prosecuting me, if indeed that is what they do, when they have issued me with a ticket from Glossop to Navigation Road endorsed zero fare. This was a standard ticket endorsed for travel from Glossop to Navigation Road. It seems to me that this has, in effect, legitimised my journey. Perhpas the guard, despite his offensive attitude, has done me a favour after all.

I am still unclear unto what exactly this ticket is?

Does it look identical to this image (http://therailticketgallery.fotopic.net/p12003095.html), just with the origin and destinations different and the price being £0.00.

 

[First class]

He would have issued a standard orange ticket from the Avantix Traveller machine, and he will have simply set the fare to zero.

What I would have done would be to issue a RSP4407/4408 endorsing it with 'receipt only- not valid for travel' and details of the ticket withdrawn. Asked them to pay the fare to Navigation Road and submit a report to Prosecutions.

 

[glynn80]

He would have issued a standard orange ticket from the Avantix Traveller machine, and he will have simply set the fare to zero.

What I would have done would be to issue a RSP4407/4408 endorsing it with 'receipt only- not valid for travel' and details of the ticket withdrawn. Asked them to pay the fare to Navigation Road and submit a report to Prosecutions.

The reason I asked was because I did not think that guards could change the given fare on the Avantix Mobile machines. If they can is it in similar fashion to what guards could previously do with SPORTIS machines?

 

[Cheka86]

Technically true, but a car around the corner from me disagrees.

Currently it has no valid tax disc, but a note expaining that it does have valid tax and that the DVLA are sending the new tax disc, and the police haven't clamped it.

The new system in place by the DVLA means that a person can renew their tax disc over the phone or internet and therefore they may actually be waiting for it to arrive in the post. The new police systems mean that when a numberplate is checked against the database it shows whether the car has valid Tax, MOT and insurance so even if the car isn't displaying it may infact be legitimate. If the person is driving without a Tax Disc they will have the car confiscated and crushed.

 

[goldenoldie]

He would have issued a standard orange ticket from the Avantix Traveller machine, and he will have simply set the fare to zero.

What I would have done would be to issue a RSP4407/4408 endorsing it with 'receipt only- not valid for travel' and details of the ticket withdrawn. Asked them to pay the fare to Navigation Road and submit a report to Prosecutions.

That is what he has done. On the bottom of the ticket he has written, in manuscript "zero fare." In the printed section it says "Price £0.00" On the top, it is endorsed "Valid only with ticket 35066" presumably the ticket he impounded.

Basically, it appears I am stuffed in terms of having any grounds for complaint. I have recognised throughout that I accept I should have read the small print on the SR Card and should have had it with me. I wish I had just paid the excess. I would then have been on stronger grounds in my complaint about the way things were handled on the day.

I am more interested now in the prosecution. Northern Rail will find it impossible to argue that we set out to defraud them because they have asked for, and we have now provided, our actual railcards. This will demonstrate beyond any reasonable doubt that the tickets were purchased legitimately.

What is strange though, is the inconsistency. The guard did not impound my wife's tickets, only mine. Not only that, there was never any suggestion that legal action would be taken. Indeed it was almost like a deal. He asked me to pay the full fare, I chose to get off the train in, what for me, was the middle of nowhere. He did seem genuinely shocked that I had chosen to do this.

Where I may be stuffed is in the byelaws in that I travelled with, what was in effect, an invalid ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You see this is a problem. It is not up to you to decide that the guard's attitude was not up to standard and thus you did not have to abide by the laws set in place that surround this issue.

There is no exemption from the laws of the land because the enforcer was discurteous to you when enforcing said laws.

A strange concept of customer service if I may say so. You are, of course, right that the "laws of the land" take precedence. I don't think, at anytime, I have tried to argue otherwise. But it is absolutely my right to see any aspect of service in any situation as a problem if I believe it to be so. I will accept, as I have done elsewhere, that I shot myself in the foot by not just paying up and complaining later.

On a more general point, I must admit rail travel is a singularly unpleasant way to travel. Believe it or not, we only decided to start using the public transport system more because we are both concerned with environmental issues.

We have gone back to the car.

 

[goldenoldie]

Is this a forum for employees of Northern Rail?

 

[mrcheek]

Is this a forum for employees of Northern Rail?

I dont work for any rail company

 

[Mintona]

The Railways have special laws which, basically, state you are in the wrong and can be given a criminal record if you make an honest mistake. The train companies can absolutely scam you by charging excessively high fares unfairly (e.g. A to C costing a lot more than A to B + B to C, etc) and this is entirely legal.

If Northern take it to court, ensure you have a good lawyer as Northern will do! They have a history of pursuing people over sums as low as about 30p.

It's not the amount though, it's the principal. If we let someone off for 30p, someone will say "well its only 40p, and you let that other person off for only a little bit less, so let me off too".

We need to keep the tough line approach going, it's the only way to detract criminals.

 

[yorkie]

OK fine, but keep the tough line for everyone who makes a mistake, including guards!

 

[goldenoldie]

It's not the amount though, it's the principal. If we let someone off for 30p, someone will say "well its only 40p, and you let that other person off for only a little bit less, so let me off too".

We need to keep the tough line approach going, it's the only way to detract criminals.

Despite what I have said so far I can accept that. In your experience, will Northern proceed with a prosecution? They asked me to produce our railcards (originals not copies) and these are in the post as we speak.

This will demonstrate that the tickets were not fraudulently obtained.