ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[jopsuk]

What is the maximum viable length (post Queen Street work)- 2+6?

 

[gsnedders]

What is the maximum viable length (post Queen Street work)- 2+6?

Platform 7 can take 2+7 presently, and 3 and 4 can take 2+6 presently. Note, of course, these aren't final given they'll be extended out into the concourse later. (Also both are tight, so might not work with signal sighting.)

 

[Altnabreac]

2+7 almost certainly wouldn't give sufficient acceleration. 2+6 should be ok though and obviously lengthening the 2+4s to 2+5 would be the obvious thing to do first.

 

[47271]

Aside from the detail on Queen Street, the stations that'll be served by the HSTs don't tend to suffer from very short platforms.

The only one that I can think of off the top of my head - they can't stop a 3+3 170 at Newtonmore.

 

[Emblematic]

2+7 almost certainly wouldn't give sufficient acceleration. 2+6 should be ok though and obviously lengthening the 2+4s to 2+5 would be the obvious thing to do first.

It may be obvious, but the only lengthening in the franchise agreement is to create two six-carriage sets in 2022, with one fewer four and five carriage sets. Unless there is gross overcrowding, I don't see this changing until the next franchise.

 

[jingsmonty]

Aside from the detail on Queen Street, the stations that'll be served by the HSTs don't tend to suffer from very short platforms.

The only one that I can think of off the top of my head - they can't stop a 3+3 170 at Newtonmore.

And Dalwhinnie (up platform)

 

[Altnabreac]

It may be obvious, but the only lengthening in the franchise agreement is to create two six-carriage sets in 2022, with one fewer four and five carriage sets. Unless there is gross overcrowding, I don't see this changing until the next franchise.

I personally don't think there will be huge capacity problems either. But if there are then it should be fairly easy to do so, subject to Transport Scotland and Scotrail agreeing terms on who would fund the additional coaches.

 

[route:oxford]

I personally don't think there will be huge capacity problems either. But if there are then it should be fairly easy to do so, subject to Transport Scotland and Scotrail agreeing terms on who would fund the additional coaches.

Could a private company potentially fund extra coaches on a revenue sharing or exclusive use basis?

There is a history of this with Stagecoach leasing coaches to be hauled by the sleeper about 25 years ago.

 

[gsnedders]

Could a private company potentially fund extra coaches on a revenue sharing or exclusive use basis?

There is a history of this with Stagecoach leasing coaches to be hauled by the sleeper about 25 years ago.

I don't know the detail of the ScotRail/Transport Scotland agreement, but I think that'd be okay under the normal DfT franchise agreements it'd be okay (because there is no further subsidy from the DfT).

 

[Northhighland]

I personally don't think there will be huge capacity problems either. But if there are then it should be fairly easy to do so, subject to Transport Scotland and Scotrail agreeing terms on who would fund the additional coaches.

I think these trains may be more popular than many think. My evidence is purely anecdotal, but I know many people who travel regularly to Edinburgh and will take the car if they cannot use the East Coast service. I know a fair few who go to Glasgow and will not use the train due to the overcrowding leaving Glasgow at night.

I think these type of passenger can easily be tempted back to using the train. Also I have in despair a few times used the Citylink Gold bus, it is regularly full as are many of the other buses. If a decent percentage of these passengers shift to train it is feasible that numbers could significantly increase.

Suppose it comes down to the ticketing and how much Scotrail want the trains full.

 

[InOban]

The coaches are full of people like me with bus passes (in Scotland the bus pass includes coach travel). And the overcrowding would be eliminated, I hear, if more trains either didn't stop before Perth, or at least stopped at Stirling to pick up only.

 

[Northhighland]

The coaches are full of people like me with bus passes (in Scotland the bus pass includes coach travel). And the overcrowding would be eliminated, I hear, if more trains either didn't stop before Perth, or at least stopped at Stirling to pick up only.

Not stopping until Perth would help, however last Wednesday the Edinburgh to Inverness afternoon train it was rammed until Pitlochry with people standing. Folks from the Glasgow train got no seats when joining at Perth. Conductor says this is a regular occurrence.

So I think the extra capacity of the HST will be welcome, but a fair part will be be used to cover the overcrowding. Your point about OAP's on buses is a good one, they do tend to fill the buses.

 

[route101]

Not stopping until Perth would help, however last Wednesday the Edinburgh to Inverness afternoon train it was rammed until Pitlochry with people standing. Folks from the Glasgow train got no seats when joining at Perth. Conductor says this is a regular occurrence.

So I think the extra capacity of the HST will be welcome, but a fair part will be be used to cover the overcrowding. Your point about OAP's on buses is a good one, they do tend to fill the buses.

If Stirling stop was emitted then there would be no fast service .

 

[Clansman]

If Stirling stop was emitted then there would be no fast service .

Stirling will receive extra fast services come 2018 anyway when the new Dundee hourlys start running, so omitting some HST calls wouldn't do too much damage.

 

[route:oxford]

If Stirling stop was emitted then there would be no fast service .

Omitting the Stirling (and Dunblane peak) stops on the fasts would not be popular with the Scotrail & Network Rail staff who enjoy a swift commute to and from Glasgow.

 

[NotATrainspott]

It would be somewhat usual for the 'seven cities' service not to call at one of those seven cities. When the 385s will be in service it shouldn't be that hard to provide enough capacity, surely?

 

[47271]

Inverness HSTs will all call at Kirkcaldy or Stirling as I understand it. I don't know about the Aberdeen ones - there are already Aberdeen trains missing those stops.

 

[najaB]

It would be somewhat usual for the 'seven cities' service not to call at one of those seven cities

To be fair they never said seven cities on one train.

 

[JohnR]

To be fair they never said seven cities on one train.

It would involve a convoluted route.... Glasgow-Edinburgh-Stirling-Perth-Dundee-Aberdeen-Inverness....

 

[marks87]

It would involve a convoluted route.... Glasgow-Edinburgh-Stirling-Perth-Dundee-Aberdeen-Inverness....

Doable without a reversal if you start in Edinburgh.

Edinburgh-Glasgow (QS LL)-Stirling-Perth-Dundee-Aberdeen-Inverness

Glasgow-Stirling being via Anniesland.

Could be a good railtour as a PR stunt just before the HSTs enter service, assuming they're cleared for the North Clyde and Maryhill lines.

 

[jopsuk]

Can do it without a reversal starting in Glasgow too, thanks to the South Suburban

 

[route101]

Stirling will receive extra fast services come 2018 anyway when the new Dundee hourlys start running, so omitting some HST calls wouldn't do too much damage.

Ok , i forgot about them Dundee services .

 

[jingsmonty]

It isn't really. Class 170s and indeed 158s are both permitted to travel at HST differential speeds as indeed were the 47/7 push-pulls back in the late 80s. So the journey time decrease will mainly be down to fewer stops and greatly improved acceleration.

They can't use the 'SP' boards on the HML though...hopefully that will be sorted...

 

[josrey]

There will be one good thing about the 4 coach sets they'll be pretty nippy!

 

[route:oxford]

There will be one good thing about the 4 coach sets they'll be pretty nippy!

Technically, yes.

HSTs aren't the quietest beasts in the world. Scottish local authorities have issued noise abatement orders to rail operators before.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-33242863

One daytime train a day is considerably different to the early to late night HST operations that will be happening.

Pulling away on an (uphill) gradient may be a touch less nippy than hoped for.

 

[hexagon789]

There will be one good thing about the 4 coach sets they'll be pretty nippy!

Considering a 2+7 HST is about a minute quicker to the ton than a 170, I would think a 2+4 will be very nippy indeed!

 

[Blindtraveler]

A passing butterfly could outstrip a 170 on a standing start Northbound from Carbridge.

 

[GusB]

Technically, yes.

HSTs aren't the quietest beasts in the world. Scottish local authorities have issued noise abatement orders to rail operators before.

I haven't been anywhere near a HST since they were re-engined, and I only have YouTube clips to go by, but aren't they much quieter now than they used to be when they had the Valentas fitted? I very much doubt that noise will be an issue. There are enough people who moan about the drone of the 170s on this forum, so I guess there's no pleasing some.

Pity they weren't still fitted with Valentas - that'd really give them something to complain about

 

[Blindtraveler]

I would think that even with 2 MTU's these will make the same or less noize than what they replace. More concerning is the door sounders which seam to get louder an d louder.

 

[najaB]

More concerning is the door sounders which seam to get louder an d louder.

There's a certain irony in a blind person complaining that the door alarms are too loud!