My idea for a direct Heathrow - Gatwick rail service

[Chrisgr31]

I'd be interested to know how many contributors to this forum have ever had to travel from Heathrow to Gatwick or vice versa, how often, and for what purpose.

I have done it once, flew out of Heathrow to Dubai and came back in to Gatwick. Where going to leave the car at Gatwick, and get the coach to Heathrow, but ended up getting parents and parents in law to drop us and collect us!

Have looked at it several times when flying to Scotland, generally speaking it can be hard to find flight times which work and provide enough time up there for a day trip unless you fly from one airport and come back to another. Last time I did it, I flew from London City and came back to Gatwick. The alternative I have done is to hire a car in Scotland so fly in to Edinburgh and return from Glasgow or vice versa.

Personally I think the solution to Londons runway issue would have been Manston, its close to HS1, so one could link it to that, but one could also build a high speed line to Gatwick and maybe on to Heathrow, Cost a lot less than developing Heathrow or Gatwick, affect less residents, be more environmentally friendly and treat them as one airport.

 

[DelW]

I'd be interested to know how many contributors to this forum have ever had to travel from Heathrow to Gatwick or vice versa, how often, and for what purpose.

Once from LHR to LGW (and also once from Southampton Airport to LHR), in both cases to collect my car after my return flight was diverted.

However I'd be a much more frequent user of a rail link to the SW main line, instead of the coach link to Woking which suffers from M25 delays.

 

[159]

Once from LHR to LGW (and also once from Southampton Airport to LHR), in both cases to collect my car after my return flight was diverted.

However I'd be a much more frequent user of a rail link to the SW main line, instead of the coach link to Woking which suffers from M25 delays.

That's for the "South Western Division connection to Heathrow' thread

 

[Minstral25]

I'd be interested to know how many contributors to this forum have ever had to travel from Heathrow to Gatwick or vice versa, how often, and for what purpose.

No but I have travelled from Redhill to Heathrow many times and it is a nightmare especially at peak times. I'd be very happy to get a through train as would many local residents along the route (One change from Brighton area would be good as well). So I think this needs to be looked at not just for Gatwick to Heathrow but also for local passengers to Heathrow to relieve the M25.

If the Guildford to Heathrow proposal is built it would be a very good to add the electrification of the North Downs from Guildford to Reigate plus re-signalling at same time to allow shorter down times on the level crossings.

Then the Heathrow trains can replace the Reading trains on this section (calling at Dorking and Reigate then turning at Redhill) and the Southern trains to Reigate can extend to Guildford to provide local services on this route.

The Reading trains can then just work from Reading to Guildford.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

No but I have travelled from Redhill to Heathrow many times and it is a nightmare especially at peak times. I'd be very happy to get a through train as would many local residents along the route (One change from Brighton area would be good as well). So I think this needs to be looked at not just for Gatwick to Heathrow but also for local passengers to Heathrow to relieve the M25.

If the Guildford to Heathrow proposal is built it would be a very good to add the electrification of the North Downs from Guildford to Reigate plus re-signalling at same time to allow shorter down times on the level crossings.

Then the Heathrow trains can replace the Reading trains on this section (calling at Dorking and Reigate then turning at Redhill) and the Southern trains to Reigate can extend to Guildford to provide local services on this route.

The Reading trains can then just work from Reading to Guildford.

You may find that there is quite a bit of through traffic from Reading and beyond to Gatwick, so doing a change of train at Guildford isn't going to be popular.

Could really do with a tri-mode "flex" type unit, so you could run from say Newbury/Swindon/Oxford to Gatwick, so you have the best of all worlds for that and yet also have direct link from Heathrow.

What would really make this idea come into its own is the Redhill avoider and/or flyover the Tonbridge line, which would then allow Kent passengers a through service with no reversals either. But that would be a completely different thread altogether.

 

[DelW]

That's for the "South Western Division connection to Heathrow' thread

The OP's suggestion was for a Heathrow - Gatwick TOC running via Guildford and / or Woking, so I was commenting that I would use part of it much more than the full route. However it's all hypothetical for the foreseeable future.

 

[JonathanH]

One change from Brighton area would be good as well)

The idea that people from Brighton and the South Coast would change at Gatwick (it doesn't make sense running trains from south of Gatwick via Redhill if they are ultimately going to London) to go via Guildford and Woking to Heathrow is insane even if a more efficient link could be built from Woking to Heathrow. They wouldn't even be at Dorking when they could have been at Clapham Junction.

If southern access to Heathrow is available from Clapham Junction one day, it is going to much more efficient to change there for Heathrow from South Coast destinations and you avoid needing to develop peripheral routes with only one purpose. Potentially one change and a considerable sight quicker than going via Guildford.

 

[tbtc]

There is a regular National Express coach service between the two, so yes, there is a market.

I think it could be more that a coach to one airport on its own isn't going to be busy enough to fill fifty seats, but the flexibility of National Express means that they can tag on Gatwick too without huge disruption.

National Express are good at tagging additional bits onto the end of journeys, so that they can serve small markets that rail would never be economic in. For example, London - Newcastle runs through to places like Whitley Bay and Ashington at minimal extra cost. Those places would never justify a direct London service in their own right, but if you are running a London - Newcastle service then it doesn't cost much more to do.

One of life's greatest mysteries to me is the contingent of people obsessed with linking airports directly to each other with rail/whatever. I literally don't understand peoples' infatuation with it, nor the belief that the number of people involved warrants it.

See also ideas like the one where Crossrail should run Heathrow - Stansted and have a separate carriage for "airside" passengers who wanted to change planes without going through Customs... that was one of my favourites!

5. The underground is behaving itself.


You could say that what's proposed here isn't a good idea and a waste of time because of the amount of through traffic, but then again you could have that attitude to AXC and say about how many people actually do Glasgow or Edinburgh to Cheltenham/Bristol/Exeter/Plymouth or Penzance.

You could say that what's proposed here isn't a good idea and a waste of time because of the amount of through traffic, but then again you could have that attitude to AXC and say about how many people actually do Glasgow or Edinburgh to Cheltenham/Bristol/Exeter/Plymouth or Penzance.

True.

I've nothing against linking the two places on a bigger line, so that Gatwick would have a direct service to (say) Oxford and Heathrow would have a direct service to (say) Brighton, but I think that the "airport to airport" market gets over-egged on here.

A dedicated train will need somewhere between 50 and 100 passengers to be economic

I can think of a dozen recent threads where this should be quoted!

And I'd like to know the rationale of always going via London, which is generally more expensive, more awkward, congested and much harder to do compared to what would be a easier albeit slower method without any congestion, no stairs, interchanges on a through service?

I know that people don't like changing trains. It gets repeated enough on here (though with no real figures to back it up).

But the problem I have with the idea that changing at Farringdon (from a frequent Thameslink service to a frequent Crossrail service) isn't acceptable to Gatwick > Heathrow passengers is that...

...instead of getting a direct plane from A to Z...

...or getting a plane from A to an airport where you can easily change to a flight bound for Z...

...they've decided (for reasons of price or the esoteric nature of their journey) to fly from A to Gatwick and then get a train over to Heathrow for a flight to Z...

...but, despite them being prepared to do a journey that involves four separate airports (and an intermediate train), they would be put off by the prospect of changing from a frequent train service to another frequent train service?

 

[gingerheid]

I've travelled on the National Express 727 from Cambridge to Gatwick many times, and as part of that route you do indeed get a free tour of London airports (Stansted, Heathrow, Gatwick).

The existence of the service in no way proves there is a market between the airports themselves. The purpose of running between the airports is more to operate services from places to many airports that are on the way between each other rather than as part of an intention to provide services between the airports. I have noticed people using them between the airports, but not in large numbers.

I can't see a dedicated service being viable unless it was part of wider co-operation between the airports in a way that wouldn't be viable between competitors.

If you were to use the existence of coach services as a guide to what airport rail links were to be built then I'd suggest Heathrow Gatwick would rank below:
- Any airport that isn't rail connected
- The majority of other bus and coach links from Gatwick and Heathrow.

 

[Bald Rick]

So far, then, we have one contributor who has done Heathrow - Gatwick because the plane was diverted from one to the other, and another contributor who has done Heathrow to Gatwick via the Middle East.

Not much in the way of demand then.

Clearly there is demand from just about every town and city in the South East to Heathrow - and Gatwick - but that doesn't mean that a Heathrow - Gatwick link should be more preferable than, say, a Heathrow to Stevenage or Gravesend to Gatwick.

I am told, however, that there is a decent demand between Luton Airport Parkway and Gatwick. Almost exclusively EasyJet and Monarch cabin crew. Something I have actually done myself (the journey, not the cabin crew).

 

[JonathanH]

Demand to the airport is a funny thing. Car traffic towards both airports is significant and there are worse queues towards Heathrow on the Surrey Section of the M25 than there are away from it in the morning.

However, that isn't just Heathrow traffic - it is the myriad of offices just off the M25 which are never going to have a straightforward public transport option from all the places people choose to live. People who want to work in those places and travel by public transport have to choose where to live such that they can get to work - just as my colleagues who work in Reigate and want to live 'in London' have to live near Clapham Junction to do so. Other people go by car.

A number of stakeholders call for a regular link from the Redhill to Tonbridge line to Gatwick Airport but the fact is that that one ran in the past and it was sufficiently poorly used to be stopped.

Railways need major point to point flows to make money - e.g. picking up people from towns and suburbs and taking them to London - airports are perhaps too small to justify dedicated links from anywhere except their neighbouring city or a connection from a wide catchment area - e.g. why there are viable coaches from Reading and Woking stations to Heathrow (with of course less capacity than a single coach train).

 

[DerekC]

Since we are in never-never land, why not run via the Ludgate lines at Clapham Junction, then Longhedge Junction, Factory Junctions, Brixton, Herne Hill then onto the BML at Streatham Common. Lots of nice flat junctions so a half-hourly service should give the ops planners some fun!

 

[FenMan]

Then the Heathrow trains can replace the Reading trains on this section (calling at Dorking and Reigate then turning at Redhill) and the Southern trains to Reigate can extend to Guildford to provide local services on this route.

The Reading trains can then just work from Reading to Guildford.

The old canard that there isn't much demand for services to Gatwick from Reading. The fact that DfT and GWR have been wanting to make the service half-hourly (currently thwarted by the Reigate level crossing issue) suggests this is not the case.

 

[A0]

There also used to be a couple of Green Line services - the 727 and 747 - and Speedlink, which showed there was a demand, but since they are no more, the demand cannot be there. However, if they were allowed to use the hard shoulders of the M25, it could be a winner!

Not quite the justification though - those Green Line services never ran non-stop between the airports, they served other places en-route and the flows from those places to / from the airports was what made them viable, not people traveling from one airport to another.

 

[159]

If southern access to Heathrow is available from Clapham Junction one day, it is going to much more efficient to change there for Heathrow from South Coast destinations and you avoid needing to develop peripheral routes with only one purpose. Potentially one change and a considerable sight quicker than going via Guildford.

You don't suppose Clapham Junction needs more passengers (and therefore trains), especially on the Reading line, do you? Would you, as a connecting passenger, be willing to squish your gigantic bag into an overcrowded and delayed 458 or whatever? A dedicated service, perhaps running onwards to Brighton and OOC, could be an XC or open access operator service pertaining to AXC and not only reduce the horrible London congestion but take connecters along a nicer route (North Downs) and probably just as quick if the timetables worked out.

In terms of rolling stock, 159s could do the trick especially if they are discarded for bi-mode trains on WoE or if electrification takes place there. They should be at home on the ND line with the GWR DMUs.

 

[JamesRowden]

You don't suppose Clapham Junction needs more passengers (and therefore trains), especially on the Reading line, do you? Would you, as a connecting passenger, be willing to squish your gigantic bag into an overcrowded and delayed 458 or whatever? A dedicated service, perhaps running onwards to Brighton and OOC, could be an XC or open access operator service pertaining to AXC and not only reduce the horrible London congestion but take connecters along a nicer route (North Downs) and probably just as quick if the timetables worked out.

In terms of rolling stock, 159s could do the trick especially if they are discarded for bi-mode trains on WoE or if electrification takes place there. They should be at home on the ND line with the GWR DMUs.

I think a Paddington-Heathrow-Woking-Guildford-Portsmouth service would be much more beneficial. Just change at Guildford from a North Downs service (or fly from Gatwick).

 

[Trailfinder]

As I work in a passenger assistance role at Heathrow, I can report that I rarely get asked 'How do I get to Gatwick?'. It is more than likely that it is somebody who has wrongly come to Heathrow rather than Gatwick, in which case they are dispatched to the Central Bus station.

Although, I recently had a case of a passenger who was travelling Germany to Dublin via London (Lufthansa + Aer Lingus). He queried why his Dublin flight was not on the board in T2 (Lufthansa and Aer Lingus are both T2 airlines). On checking his boarding card it was for a flight from Gatwick, which was leaving in less than an hour - no chance of catching it, so was sent to the AL desk to rebook from LHR. Flights had been arranged by his PR.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

But I have already said that whilst there may not be a large number of people who want to do a through journey in normal circumstances, it's when you get things like severe weather or a major operational problem that such a link would come into its own.

In these circumstances you could transfer passengers from one to the other quickly and easily without going via London and if you can do it without causing confusion, concern & more angst to people who maybe should just be doing a transfer between flights or being forced to swap planes for some reason and they have kids, luggage with them too and English probably won't be their native language either. Just make it nice easy experience to do.

Also such a service will open up new journey opportunities, so it should be seen as a good idea.

 

[The Ham]

But I have already said that whilst there may not be a large number of people who want to do a through journey in normal circumstances, it's when you get things like severe weather or a major operational problem that such a link would come into its own.

In these circumstances you could transfer passengers from one to the other quickly and easily without going via London and if you can do it without causing confusion, concern & more angst to people who maybe should just be doing a transfer between flights or being forced to swap planes for some reason and they have kids, luggage with them too and English probably won't be their native language either. Just make it nice easy experience to do.

Also such a service will open up new journey opportunities, so it should be seen as a good idea.

If it were to be run and the were electrification throughout I could see the being a prepared bad weather timetable that used otherwise idle units in the of peaks to run 12 coach trains at certain times of the day.

The extra mileage should be low enough (given that it should only happen infrequently through the year) that it makes little difference to the lease costs, but the demand would be high enough that the airlines could cover the extra costs fairly easily without it costing much (probably more than a bus, but less than a taxi, but more reliable than both and at times faster than both).

 

[JamesRowden]

But I have already said that whilst there may not be a large number of people who want to do a through journey in normal circumstances, it's when you get things like severe weather or a major operational problem that such a link would come into its own.

In these circumstances you could transfer passengers from one to the other quickly and easily without going via London and if you can do it without causing confusion, concern & more angst to people who maybe should just be doing a transfer between flights or being forced to swap planes for some reason and they have kids, luggage with them too and English probably won't be their native language either. Just make it nice easy experience to do.

Also such a service will open up new journey opportunities, so it should be seen as a good idea.

I think that the only way such a service could justify paths is if a new Gatwick-Heathrow-Chiltern-WCML railway line is built (with connections to other lines it crosses between Heathrow and Gatwick).