Study to consider Borders Railway extension

[Chrism20]

ChrisM,

Yes, it's all very desolately beautiful, but I can't help thinking that Hawick is about the limit for Edinburgh - but I would move heaven and earth to put the station on the south side of the river on the carpark to preserve the option of pushing south at more marginal cost. Applying Altanabreac's famous reopening rules. I've often wondered if the more useful extension would be Gala - Kelso - Berwick and thence to Newcastle.

I've got no idea what the Gala - Newcastle time would be in something like a 185, though. Anyone any ideas?

Gala - Kelso - Berwick would certainly cover more population and Newcastle from speaking with colleagues in the area when visiting them Newcastle is mentioned more than Carlisle for shopping trips etc although I expect the MetroCentre has a lot to do with that, no idea about timings though sorry.

 

[fegguk]

Gala - Kelso - Berwick would certainly cover more population and Newcastle from speaking with colleagues in the area when visiting them Newcastle is mentioned more than Carlisle for shopping trips etc although I expect the MetroCentre has a lot to do with that, no idea about timings though sorry.

I don’t think that there are that many more people from St Boswells to Berwick than live in Hawick alone and they are far more dispersed. If the line were, rebuilt Edinburgh would be as convenient as a shopping centre by train than Newcastle. Berwick is further north than Galashiels and Kelso, this route would have no relevance as a though route except as a diversion limiting its benfits as part of the wider network.

Having said this at a recent event promoting the Borders Railway to business a Transport Scotland representative noted that, in the public questionnaire they used as part of the current transport appraisal, Northumberland had come out at far more important as than they were expecting. (I my opinion questionnaire was very road biased) He did say that if anything happens, because of the study, implementation would be very slow. There is no money. If the past is anything to go by they will find other things to spend it on like fixing congestion on the new Forth Bridge.

 

[Tobbes]

That makes sense, fegguk - I should've been clearer. I think that there is potential for two Edinburgh focussed extensions - Hawick and Penicuik. However, to pull off decent service levels, especially in the peaks, I guess you'd probably have to build more dynamic loops / double more of the line.

In addition, if there were a demand to press southwards, I'd guess that there is more mileage in going via Kelso to Berwick, rather than Hawick to Carlisle.

 

[edwin_m]

Berwick could well make more sense in terms of serving population. But a significant part of the route would be in England, the former junction at Tweedmouth faces south, and most of the journeys catered for would be to/from English destinations. I'm not sure TS would want to fund this (or even if it has powers to fund infrastructure in England) and I can't see DfT chipping in...

 

[Altnabreac]

Berwick could well make more sense in terms of serving population. But a significant part of the route would be in England, the former junction at Tweedmouth faces south, and most of the journeys catered for would be to/from English destinations. I'm not sure TS would want to fund this (or even if it has powers to fund infrastructure in England) and I can't see DfT chipping in...

TS can potentially fund infrastructure in England but Scottish Ministers cannot "promote" cross border lines so the statutory processes for such a line would have to be done at Westminster, I suspect as it would be cross-border TAWS would not be possible either so it would have to be a Hybrid Bill process.

I don't see any eastern Borders reopening as being even vaguely viable, Reston station is seen as being the rail intervention for Berwickshire and a park and ride at Newtown St Boswells is the closest Kelso will get to the rail network.

 

[edwin_m]

I don't see any eastern Borders reopening as being even vaguely viable, Reston station is seen as being the rail intervention for Berwickshire and a park and ride at Newtown St Boswells is the closest Kelso will get to the rail network.

Yes you're probably right, when I said "more sense" then "less nonsense" might have been more appropriate.

 

[tomatwark]

A park and ride between St Boswells and Newton St Boswells would make sense
with a big enough car park, the one at Tweedbank is to small.

I am sat typing this 500 yards from the site of Kelso station and it would be lovely to be able to leave my office walk to the station and catch the train.

However it is only 15-20 minutes to drive to St Boswells so it would make more sense to open the line to Hawick with the park and ride mentioned above.

 

[backontrack]

Historically you had:

Edinburgh-Longniddry-Drem-East Linton-Dunbar-Reston-Ayton-Burnmouth-Berwick
Edinburgh-Eskbank and Dalkeith-Bonnyrigg-Leadburn-Peebles
Symington-Biggar-Broughton-Peebles-Innerleithen-Walkerburn-Galashiels
Edinburgh-Eskbank and Dalkeith-Fountainhall-Galashiels-Melrose-St Boswells-Hawick-Riccarton-Newcastleton-Riddings-Longtown-Carlisle
St Boswells-Earlston-Greenlaw-Duns-Chirnside-Reston
St Boswells-Roxburgh Junction-Kelso-Coldstream-Norham-Tweedmouth(-Berwick)
Riccarton-Bellingham-Reedsmouth-Hexham
Leadburn-West Linton-Dolphinton
Riddings-Canonbie-Langholm
Roxburgh Junction-Jedburgh
Fountainhall-Oxton-Lauder
Burnmouth-Eyemouth
Galashiels-Selkirk

 

[backontrack]

ChrisM,

Yes, it's all very desolately beautiful, but I can't help thinking that Hawick is about the limit for Edinburgh - but I would move heaven and earth to put the station on the south side of the river on the carpark to preserve the option of pushing south at more marginal cost. Applying Altanabreac's famous reopening rules. I've often wondered if the more useful extension would be Gala - Kelso - Berwick and thence to Newcastle.

I've got no idea what the Gala - Newcastle time would be in something like a 185, though. Anyone any ideas?

What stations would you have?

Possibly something like Tweedbank-Melrose-Newtown-St Boswells-Kelso-Coldstream-Norham-East Ord-Berwick?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Aren't Kelso and Coldstream small garrison towns or have military connections?

I've heard of the Coldstream Guards, but there's something else about those two that makes famous for something. Or am I just losing the plot? (Actually don't answer that).

 

[fegguk]

Aren't Kelso and Coldstream small garrison towns or have military connections?

I've heard of the Coldstream Guards, but there's something else about those two that makes famous for something. Or am I just losing the plot? (Actually don't answer that).

We do not currently need to garrison the Borders and have not done so for about 250 years or longer. There are almost no military installations in the Scottish Borders. Most people no longer fear an English invasion even on Bank Holidays when car parking in Kelso becomes critical, there is not even a traffic warden to deter invaders.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Och I the Noo. Jimmy!

 

[GusB]

Och I the Noo. Jimmy!

Apples and pears, mate. Ooh, cor blimey, me Chalfonts ain't 'alf givin' me grief.

 

[Altnabreac]

A park and ride between St Boswells and Newton St Boswells would make sense
with a big enough car park, the one at Tweedbank is to small.

I am sat typing this 500 yards from the site of Kelso station and it would be lovely to be able to leave my office walk to the station and catch the train.

However it is only 15-20 minutes to drive to St Boswells so it would make more sense to open the line to Hawick with the park and ride mentioned above.

A Park and Ride option south of Newtown St Boswells was one of the terminus options in the original Borders Rail Business Case back in 2002. (Known as Charlesfield).

I would tend to think that if extending to Hawick the preference would be for a single station in Newtown St Boswells with Park and Ride provision rather than a separate station to the south.

 

[tomatwark]

A Park and Ride option south of Newtown St Boswells was one of the terminus options in the original Borders Rail Business Case back in 2002. (Known as Charlesfield).

I would tend to think that if extending to Hawick the preference would be for a single station in Newtown St Boswells with Park and Ride provision rather than a separate station to the south.

As long as there was enough parking provision, Tweedbank is far to small, there are no spaces by the middle of the day a lot of the time so people end up parking anywhere they can.

It maybe that by extending the line that the parking will get easier as the people who currently use Tweedbank but live Kelso and Jedburgh way would us the nearer station to them.

 

[markindurham]

Thanks for the heads up about the parking at Tweedbank. I'm planning on doing a trip into Edinburgh from there in a few weeks. The limits on spaces are noted.

 

[najaB]

As long as there was enough parking provision, Tweedbank is far to small, there are no spaces by the middle of the day a lot of the time so people end up parking anywhere they can.

Interesting change since the 1960's when one of the predicates of the 'Beeching Axe' was that less profitable lines could be shut as long as parking provision was made at railhead stations. In practice, once people were in their car they stayed in their car all the way to Big City.

 

[fegguk]

Thanks for the heads up about the parking at Tweedbank. I'm planning on doing a trip into Edinburgh from there in a few weeks. The limits on spaces are noted.

The parking issue has been a bit over played, if the car park is full there is normally space elsewhere in the industrial estate which is just as close. There are no parking restriction in Tweedbank as a whole.

 

[tomatwark]

The parking issue has been a bit over played, if the car park is full there is normally space elsewhere in the industrial estate which is just as close. There are no parking restriction in Tweedbank as a whole.

Not really, as the last few times I have used it the streets around it have been empty and the car park double parked in places, this is likely to be a case of folks not being sure if their cars will be safe, but more likely being to lazy to walk.

Also I have heard there have been complaints from the businesses on the estate as well.

 

[markindurham]

The parking issue has been a bit over played, if the car park is full there is normally space elsewhere in the industrial estate which is just as close. There are no parking restriction in Tweedbank as a whole.

Excellent. Thank you

 

[markindurham]

Not really, as the last few times I have used it the streets around it have been empty and the car park double parked in places, this is likely to be a case of folks not being sure if their cars will be safe, but more likely being to lazy to walk.

Also I have heard there have been complaints from the businesses on the estate as well.

Thanks for this too. Well noted

 

[HSTEd]

The Coldstream Guards are so named because they reentered England near the village of Coldstream on their way to London to support their Colonel's plan to restore the monarchy

 

[EIKN]

Although the population is much less South of Hawick.
You need to think much longer term.
E.g. when the 'HS2' is operating and HS3.
There will need to be some significant investment Again in your
West Coast Line , Signalling 4 track loops . Straightening sections .
Altering stations so high speed ' HS (X) trains can in theory run at what 200kph ?.

Please excuse my conversion might be a bit off . But the same goes for the East Coast line .
Both Edinburgh and Glasgow Stations will need some kind of serious investment .
Tackling congestion and providing Long platforms for that service .
Plus your executive plans to build HS4? Edinburgh Glasgow.
Would this allow a service from London to Edinburgh to continue to Glasgow ?.
Anyway the point is toward the Scottish border you have Longtown , Brampton
And as Somone interested in aviation - having met bosses at Carlisle Airport.
There will be a high chance that the offer to Easyjet of free landing fees.
And identical terms to Southend ( off topic I know ). In addition to Flybe.
And Ryanair.
Will mean that Longtown as a station could be provided with a good park and ride or Airport bus .
The ultimate point.labouring toward in my tired state IS the borders route from Carlisle to Edinburgh should be considered as I've read it will go longtown then up to Langholm perhaps another station . Meeting a problem with the Whitthrope railway . But im.sure they could 4 track here two tracks passing the heritage line.
And onto Hawick - Tweedbank via Melrose .
A similar Northumberland link. Will provide my final point that both routes suffient double track.replsce
The Silly DMU'S with Bimode ( unless electrified or more HST sets) reducing journey times.
And making the Waverley route useful but by finally running freight up it taking freight OFF each mainline West and East.
Freight could run say From London as the old express . Via Leeds settle Carlisle.
Us PAX services that could use steam specials / bi mode to offer a scenic route North.
Freeing up the Mainlines for HS2/3 traffic to run faster .

The Beeching Axe imho was an act of vandalism still being wielded here ( not Beeching obviously) in Eireann.
One could argue road congestion and pollution has been made much worse
By close rail services all over .
To make a real success the route ought to be fully restored . And remember .
The two main routes North especially in the west don't meet huge towns along the way .
Once past Carlise or Berwick.

The whole route and it's utilisation needs to be viewed not just for that one route but freeing up others by restoring lines mentioned in previous posts.

 

[snowball]

The Coldstream Guards are so named because they reentered England near the village of Coldstream on their way to London to support their Colonel's plan to restore the monarchy

And the Stoon of Scon crossed the border at Coldstream on its return to Scotland.

 

[Roose]

In Carlisle there is great excitement at the prospect of the odd flight to Dublin with London (Southend) and Belfast City to be considered. Hardly going to be a market for people (from where, exactly?) getting a train to a Park and Ride site at Longtown, while anyone in a car would simply drive to the airport.

All previous London flights to more accessible airports failed fairly quickly at times when rail services to London were slower and less frequent than today excellent London service from Carlisle.

Carlisle Airport is not well-sited - on the wrong side of town for most out-of-towners and barely a further hour's drive takes you to Newcastle International whose frequencies and destinations will always trump Carlisle's. As for the proposal to name it 'Carlisle Lake District Airport', well that just strikes me as desperation (rather like Virgin's 'Carlisle, City of the Lakes'!). All the other centres of population with five figures (in order of size: Barrow, Kendal, Workington, Whitehaven, Penrith, Dalton, Maryport and Ulverston) and are nearer to a border of the National Park than Carlisle! (Brampton, incidentally, just scrapes into the top twenty centres of population in Cumbria at number 18 with fewer than 5000 while Longtown with 3000 doesn't make the list)

 

[edwin_m]

rather like Virgin's 'Carlisle, City of the Lakes'!

Perhaps they're alluding to the fact that Carlisle seems to flood badly every two or three years.

 

[backontrack]

Perhaps they're alluding to the fact that Carlisle seems to flood badly every two or three years.

Not funny.

Point is, south and east of Galashiels you have an area of untapped potential. We've seen how well the Borders Railway has done, the proof of success is there; now it's just the matter of how we go about things now. Hawick should definitely be on the table - but then what?

I think that an upside-down y-shape has potential - one line to Hawick via Selkirk and the other to Kelso via Melrose and St Boswells.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

The thing is when you provide infrastructure like this it tends to bring additional housing and residents into the immediate area and sometime it's the other way around where a developer decides to build a significant number of homes on the proviso that transport infrastructure is provided at minimal cost to the taxpayer.

So perhaps rather than looking at the route map and saying no point in going there because there's no demand, what they should be looking at is future & potential property development areas along it and anticipating demand, because all of the time you put things off, the more expensive they'll be should you want to install or reinstate later a project will be.

 

[Altnabreac]

Not funny.

Point is, south and east of Galashiels you have an area of untapped potential. We've seen how well the Borders Railway has done, the proof of success is there; now it's just the matter of how we go about things now. Hawick should definitely be on the table - but then what?

I think that an upside-down y-shape has potential - one line to Hawick via Selkirk and the other to Kelso via Melrose and St Boswells.

Have you ever driven from Selkirk to Hawick?

The Selkirk track bed is largely lost and not possible to extend without demolition through the town. So you're looking at an expensive new alignment through steep terrain with a park and ride outside the town itself.

No chance of a business case.

 

[backontrack]

Well, here's a little map anyway:



EDIT: Oops, Selkirk is missing. Imagine it north of Ashkirk please