Future of the Blackpool South line

[Lytham Local]

Well this explains the work on at Lytham next to the platform, but not why there's an AWS magnet. One to keep my eye on.

 

[snowball]

There's something very weird about Lytham Local's post. It contains an invisible link. You can see the link if you try to quote the post. The link is enclosed in [ IMG] [ /IMG] tags but I can't view the image. If I try, the board says "Invalid attachment specified".

 

[Lytham Local]

There's something very weird about Lytham Local's post. It contains an invisible link. You can see the link if you try to quote the post. The link is enclosed in [ IMG] [ /IMG] tags but I can't view the image. If I try, the board says "Invalid attachment specified".

Think I screwed up the attachment stuff. Should be there now.

 

[snowball]

Yes, fine now, thanks.

 

[The Planner]

Signal going in at Lytham AFAIK so they can turn back there if required.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Signal going in at Lytham AFAIK so they can turn back there if required.

If the entire line is basically a long siding on which you can only ever have one train at a time - so any driver there knows he's driving the only train on the branch, why would you need a signal to turn back?

 

[Bletchleyite]

To allow a turn back to be operated if a train breaks down further along?

 

[MarkyT]

Is the method of working changing to TCB (track circuit block) with axle counters as part of the resignalling going on in the area? It is currently OT (one train [without trains staff]) according to the Sectional Appendix. For TCB, signals are required at any place where trains are permitted to reverse, not required if the line is classified OT. If it is planned for a train to be at the extremity of the line while another one can get to Lytham and back, that would need at least three signals capable of displaying a red around Lytham: One at the Preston end of the station for authorising the reversal itself and a pair facing each other at least two overlap distances apart at the Blackpool end of the station. The extremity of the line could remain worked as OT rather than TCB in that case so a reversing signal would not be required at the terminus. Stop signals as described would need distant signals or boards as appropriate as well of course.

 

[driver9000]

Signal going in at Lytham AFAIK so they can turn back there if required.

Why does it suddenly need a signal? Trains have been turning back short without signals on that branch for years.....

 

[MarkyT]

Why does it suddenly need a signal? Trains have been turning back short without signals on that branch for years.....

It is necessary for TCB working, assuming the branch is being converted from OT as I suggested in my last post. With a line signalled as TCB there must be a signal at stations used for reversing. With OT or token working a signal is not required.

 

[edwin_m]

Is it intended that a second train could follow the Blackpool South train and turn back at Lytham ahead of the return working from Blackpool? This would need a minimum of three signals but I don't know if any others are being put in nearby.

 

[Ianno87]

Is it intended that a second train could follow the Blackpool South train and turn back at Lytham ahead of the return working from Blackpool? This would need a minimum of three signals but I don't know if any others are being put in nearby.

Would it not mainly be for when the Open Golf is on at Lytham, whereby the branch frequency is upped by doing short workings to Lytham and back, rather than trundling all the way to Blackpool South (which is bus-replaced instead)?

 

[D60]

Would it not mainly be for when the Open Golf is on at Lytham, whereby the branch frequency is upped by doing short workings to Lytham and back, rather than trundling all the way to Blackpool South (which is bus-replaced instead)?

The Open Golf extras were run to Ansdell & Fairhaven, rather than Lytham... The end of the platform at Ansdell is alongside the south/east end of the golf course with a temporary footway laid to give direct access to the course from the platform... Whereas Lytham station is an inconvenient distance away..

 

[bradford758]

Slightly related here but according to some Northern bumf in 2018 the longstanding Blackpool South - Colne services are being split in two at Preston. Another step towards the eventual tram training of the line?

yes, to operate to/from Ormskirk.

Sent from my 4009X

 

[bradford758]

This might be a silly question but I am not sure of the answer. While the station at Blackpool North is closed is the line to South still open or is everything closed from Fylde Junction?

I am wondering if the signals are to split the line two and have a captive unit for events such as the golf or as above line closures?

Saw Seve playing after having to change on way back from South.

 

[The Planner]

Just checked the signalling diagram, track circuits are being installed with a 2 aspect signal BL5834 at Blackpool South, distant BL5828 at Ansdell, BL5826 at Lytham. On the down a single yellow BL5833 replaces the fixed distant board at Pleasure Beach

 

[D60]

Can't remember the years.. but in one year for the Open Golf, the line was effectively split at Ansdell, with the half-hourly 4-car extras service terminating at Ansdell, and the hourly regular service to B'pl Sth operating from the further end of the platform... (Seem to recall also that the golf extras operated from the Res platform at Preston..?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

yes, to operate to/from Ormskirk.

I did wonder what would pair up with Ormskirk for the new hourly service, as otherwise you'd have a unit and crew laying over for about 55 minutes in each two hour cycle, which I'm sure would be very punctual but is rather wasteful.

I think that's back to what it used to be when it was last hourly in Network NorthWest days in the early 90s.

I guess 3 units/crews will run an hourly service on both branches, rather than requiring two for each?

 

[D60]

Referring to post #5107 (1 Sept 2017) on the Bpl - Mcr Electrification thread..

Quote: "There are currently new sleepers in position on the downside of the Down/Up Lytham line, from about 50 metres after Kirkham North Jn progressing around the corner.
This was viewed from a Blackpool North train so it was difficult to see the extent of how far it goes"..

This wasn't commented upon on that thread, and I don't think it's been picked up on this thread...
If new double track was being laid at the Kirkham end in the direction of Wrea Green, this would have the effect of shortening the single-track length of the branch, and improve the resilience of the hourly timetable in the event of late running... (Bpl South trains are already timetabled to depart the platform at Kirkham before the service off the branch arrives, and are often/usually waiting at the junction for the train from Bpl Sth to exit the branch..)..

Is anyone able to comment any further on any of this..?

 

[The Planner]

The double track is extended a bit but Kirkham gets extensively rationalised and remodelled as part of the work with a new platform 3. Blackpool South will use 1 bi-directionally and North will be the mains through 2 and the new 3.

 

[driver9000]

Can't remember the years.. but in one year for the Open Golf, the line was effectively split at Ansdell, with the half-hourly 4-car extras service terminating at Ansdell, and the hourly regular service to B'pl Sth operating from the further end of the platform... (Seem to recall also that the golf extras operated from the Res platform at Preston..?)

No it didn't. It was the 2012 golf open. The normal service was withdrawn and an enhanced special service (one train all stops and one limited stop) operated to Ansdell only. Buses operated between Ansdell and Blackpool South. They did use ReS platform at Preston and were all 4 car 150/2 trains.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

It is necessary for TCB working ...

One signal might be, but TCB can still be OT. It (the upgrade) may be required for the correct operation of ARS, which will need to know where the trains are a long way out in order to make the best decisions.

 

[edwin_m]

One signal might be, but TCB can still be OT. It (the upgrade) may be required for the correct operation of ARS, which will need to know where the trains are a long way out in order to make the best decisions.

Can't see that ARS needs a signal. It can see the state of individual tracks so it would only need an axle counter somewhere far enough away to give the indication of train running, and another one probably on the approach to the distant for Kirkham & Wesham so if the route is available it can be set in time for the train to get greens all the way through. With all due respect to K&W, in regulation terms it's not exactly Clapham Junction...

 

[D60]

No it didn't. It was the 2012 golf open. The normal service was withdrawn and an enhanced special service (one train all stops and one limited stop) operated to Ansdell only. Buses operated between Ansdell and Blackpool South. They did use ReS platform at Preston and were all 4 car 150/2 trains.

That was the operation in 2012...

The operation I described was in one (or more) of the previous years... I couldn't remember the years, so I've checked... so 2001, or 1996...

So.. yes it did.. (both what you describe, and what I describe, at different times)..

 

[edwin_m]

Just checked the signalling diagram, track circuits are being installed with a 2 aspect signal BL5834 at Blackpool South, distant BL5828 at Ansdell, BL5826 at Lytham. On the down a single yellow BL5833 replaces the fixed distant board at Pleasure Beach

So with no Down stop signals the branch can still only accommodate one train.

 

[class17]

That was the operation in 2012...

The operation I described was in one (or more) of the previous years... I couldn't remember the years, so I've checked... so 2001, or 1996...

So.. yes it did.. (both what you describe, and what I describe, at different times)..

Agreed. I remember the operation described as D60. It was many years ago, perhaps up to 20 years ago.

 

[D60]

Agreed. I remember the operation described as D60. It was many years ago, perhaps up to 20 years ago.

I've narrowed it down to 1996.. (as being the specific year I was taking notice, rather than 2001)..

 

[MarkyT]

The double track is extended a bit but Kirkham gets extensively rationalised and remodelled as part of the work with a new platform 3. Blackpool South will use 1 bi-directionally and North will be the mains through 2 and the new 3.

On the Fylde planning portal I found this General Arrangement drawing which shows the new platform and access work:

http://www3.fylde.gov.uk/online-app...-PROPOSED_F002_GENERAL_ARRANGEMENT-786387.pdf

The drawing shows platform #1 as the the "Down Lytham" but I guess it will be bidirectional to allow a shuttle service on the branch when neccessary. Are there also crossovers to the west, between the station and original junction divergence to allow up Lytham trains to reach platfrom 3?

 

[The Planner]

So with no Down stop signals the branch can still only accommodate one train.

Basically.

 

[The Planner]

On the Fylde planning portal I found this General Arrangement drawing which shows the new platform and access work:

http://www3.fylde.gov.uk/online-app...-PROPOSED_F002_GENERAL_ARRANGEMENT-786387.pdf

The drawing shows platform #1 as the the "Down Lytham" but I guess it will be bidirectional to allow a shuttle service on the branch when neccessary. Are there also crossovers to the west, between the station and original junction divergence to allow up Lytham trains to reach platfrom 3?

The down line splits into two at about 7 and half miles. Platform 1 is the Down Lytham and is bi di from the station onwards. Platform 2 is the Down Fylde and is also bi di in the platform for Blackpool South trains. Platform 3 is up only. The Blackpool South line is twin track bi di to about 8 and three quarter miles to a new Kirkham West Jn where the single commences. There is crossover between the Down and Up Fyldes at about 8 and quarter miles. The Up Lytham joins near there at Kirkham North Jn.