Using SouthEastern's The Key Smartcard On Valid Non-SE Routes?

[KingJ]

Hey there,

Long time lurker of the forums but first time poster

Typically my partner uses SouthEastern's The Key Smartcard on journeys between Tonbridge and London with a 7 Day Season routed Not HS1. I understand that this ticket is valid both on SouthEastern services via Sevenoaks, but also on Southern services via Redhill.

However, if my partner were to travel via Redhill on The Key and break their journey there, would the barriers let them out given that it is a SouthEastern specific (but standardised) smartcard at a non-SouthEastern station? Would any Southern staff on board or on the gateline be able to inspect and confirm the ticket's validity?

I have just noticed that SouthEastern's The Key FAQ states "You can travel by any Train Company or route permitted by the ticket held, and you're not limited to travelling only on Southeastern trains and on the Southeastern Network." but i'm unsure how this would work in practice - especially when exiting at a non-SouthEastern station.

Many thanks!

 

[radamfi]

Southern also accept and issue The Key and have done for a number of years now. They've been using The Key long before SouthEastern. Southern's On Board Supervisors/guards carry smartcard readers.

 

[KingJ]

Southern also accept and issue The Key and have done for a number of years now. They've been using The Key long before SouthEastern. Southern's On Board Supervisors/guards carry smartcard readers.

Ah great, I knew they had also branded their ITSO smartcards as The Key, but I wasn't sure if it was fully interoperable. Sounds like it should all be ok then?

Thanks for the info.

 

[alistairlees]

Ah great, I knew they had also branded their ITSO smartcards as The Key, but I wasn't sure if it was fully interoperable. Sounds like it should all be ok then?

Thanks for the info.

It's not interoperable at all, but you still won't have any problems. I have a High Brooms to London Key Card (and have had since January) and have used it on many journeys to Redhill, East Croydon, Victoria, Blackfriars, Denmark Hill and Waterloo (when the trains were diverted). I've travelled on Southern and Thameslink. No issues at all.

The systems are interoperable because Southern (GTR) uses ACT as a back office, whilst Southeastern uses SEFT (South East Flexible Ticketing scheme) as a back office. Actually not the fault of GoVia (which owns both TOCs) - use of SEFT for Southeastern was mandated by the DfT, in an attempt to cover up the £100m+ wasted on it. But that's not your problem!

Travel and enjoy. If it won't work the gates, you'll just be let out manually (the gates at Redhill are often open anyway).

 

[KingJ]

It's not interoperable at all, but you still won't have any problems. I have a High Brooms to London Key Card (and have had since January) and have used it on many journeys to Redhill, East Croydon, Victoria, Blackfriars, Denmark Hill and Waterloo (when the trains were diverted). I've travelled on Southern and Thameslink. No issues at all.

The systems are interoperable because Southern (GTR) uses ACT as a back office, whilst Southeastern uses SEFT (South East Flexible Ticketing scheme) as a back office. Actually not the fault of GoVia (which owns both TOCs) - use of SEFT for Southeastern was mandated by the DfT, in an attempt to cover up the £100m+ wasted on it. But that's not your problem!

Travel and enjoy. If it won't work the gates, you'll just be let out manually (the gates at Redhill are often open anyway).

It's reassuring to hear that you've been able to make lots of journeys like this without issue. Many thanks for the confirmation - it's also pretty interesting to hear how it actually works behind the scenes!

 

[yorkie]

The Key is a medium. What matters is the product (fare) you have loaded onto that medium.

If a fare is held in a format that the DfT has approved, then all train companies on which the fare is valid on, are compelled to accept that fare. This is a legal and contractual requirement. So in this case GTR are compelled to accept your product as it is valid on their services via Redhill.

The following principle applies:

"What counts is the message, not the medium."

 

[2dmuppet]

Morning all,

I'm a first time poster, but I've been using a key smartcard on other lines, so thought I would share my own experience as there does seem to be issues with usage at certain stations across the network.

Apologies for the length of this tale.

I've used the smartcard for journeys from Royston to Kings Cross on Great Northern for a while with no problem. However, I've recently changed jobs and now travel in the opposite direction to Cambridge.

I charged up my card online and got myself to Cambridge only to discover that I couldn't get through the barriers at the station. I was initially told that my card was invalid. I did explain that I did have a valid ticket. I was then informed that I shouldn't have been sold a key card ticket to Cambridge in the first place.

Eventually spoke to customer services at the station. After a long conversation, I was told that the barriers were operated by Greater Anglia and my keycard ticket should not have been sold to me to Cambridge.

At this point I felt like I was in a Terry Gilliam movie. My defence was that I was sold the ticket, it was valid and it seemed absurd that one rail franchise could prevent passengers from another rail franchise from using the station effectively.

The customer services chap could not be more helpful and eventually discovered that I was issued a keycard ticket validly, but the 'system' had not been updated to work with Greater Anglia barriers, but he would have a word with staff.

After a week of having to run the gauntlet and explain myself to the guys at the barriers twice a day I gave up and reverted to a paper ticket.

Anyway, from reading this thread, It seems that with the disparate rail companies and their disparate technologies, there does need to be some grander plan to prevent customers from falling under the bureaucratic wheels.

I mentioned this when I bought my paper ticket. I was told, 'well it isn't the end of the world, is it?'. I guess not :roll:

 

[Hadders]

Morning all,

I'm a first time poster, but I've been using a key smartcard on other lines, so thought I would share my own experience as there does seem to be issues with usage at certain stations across the network.

Apologies for the length of this tale.

I've used the smartcard for journeys from Royston to Kings Cross on Great Northern for a while with no problem. However, I've recently changed jobs and now travel in the opposite direction to Cambridge.

I charged up my card online and got myself to Cambridge only to discover that I couldn't get through the barriers at the station. I was initially told that my card was invalid. I did explain that I did have a valid ticket. I was then informed that I shouldn't have been sold a key card ticket to Cambridge in the first place.

Eventually spoke to customer services at the station. After a long conversation, I was told that the barriers were operated by Greater Anglia and my keycard ticket should not have been sold to me to Cambridge.

At this point I felt like I was in a Terry Gilliam movie. My defence was that I was sold the ticket, it was valid and it seemed absurd that one rail franchise could prevent passengers from another rail franchise from using the station effectively.

The customer services chap could not be more helpful and eventually discovered that I was issued a keycard ticket validly, but the 'system' had not been updated to work with Greater Anglia barriers, but he would have a word with staff.

After a week of having to run the gauntlet and explain myself to the guys at the barriers twice a day I gave up and reverted to a paper ticket.

Anyway, from reading this thread, It seems that with the disparate rail companies and their disparate technologies, there does need to be some grander plan to prevent customers from falling under the bureaucratic wheels.

I mentioned this when I bought my paper ticket. I was told, 'well it isn't the end of the world, is it?'. I guess not :roll:

Generally speaking I'm in favour of using modern technology to make things easier but this is a classic demonstration of how the railway gets technology wrong.

There shouldn't be operator specific smart cards- it should be a national scheme.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Generally speaking I'm in favour of using modern technology to make things easier but this is a classic demonstration of how the railway gets technology wrong.

I think the biggest problem with the implementation of smart cards is that all along the TOCs and DfT have been trying to use them as a stealth method of closing ticket offices. This means there has been so much emphasis on having ticket gates automatically validate the cards rather than having them checked by staff, and staff in ticket offices have been disempowered from being able to help with any problems with smart cards, because in the "big plan" they'll all be got rid of and everything will be done by machines. But I couldn't even start to list all the flaws with this approach.

 

[yorkie]

Morning all,

I'm a first time poster, but I've been using a key smartcard on other lines, so thought I would share my own experience ...

Welcome to the forum

Thanks for informing us of this experience, though I am not surprised!

 

[Dent]

I think the biggest problem with the implementation of smart cards is that all along the TOCs and DfT have been trying to use them as a stealth method of closing ticket offices. This means there has been so much emphasis on having ticket gates automatically validate the cards rather than having them checked by staff, and staff in ticket offices have been disempowered from being able to help with any problems with smart cards, because in the "big plan" they'll all be got rid of and everything will be done by machines. But I couldn't even start to list all the flaws with this approach.

That may be an issue, but it is not the issue at hand in this case. The issue at hand is that these various smartcard systems are operator-specific, whereas they should have been standardised before they were ever introduced.

 

[swt_passenger]

The systems are interoperable because Southern (GTR) uses ACT as a back office, whilst Southeastern uses SEFT (South East Flexible Ticketing scheme) as a back office.

Is there a missing word here?

 

[KingJ]

Just a little bit of a follow up on this...

My partner for whom I was originally asking for never actually needed to use her smartcard to exit in the end (her employer accidentally purchased a ticket even though she mentioned she had one!), so there was never a chance to confirm if it would work or not. However, I also have the same smartcard and ticket loaded on to it and needed to travel onwards to Three Bridges a couple of weekends ago. Not having been able to buy onboard the train in to Redhill, I needed to exit and purchase a Redhill - Three Bridges ticket. As mentioned by others on this thread, my smartcard did indeed not work on the barriers, but the gateline guard let me through when I showed it to them - not even scanning it to confirm.

(In general, I have noticed that happening quite often - most gate guards and onboard staff do not check that I actually have a valid ticket loaded on to the smart card, simply showing the bit of plastic to them is enough. I think i've had it scanned about 20% of the time so far? Given that you can officially get ahold of the smartcards free of charge without having to buy a ticket with it, that's a little concerning from a revenue protection point of view!)