ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[clc]

I don't know about that but there is a rumour going round locally that drivers passed out on HSTs will be issued with a new jacket...

Surely they should be given urgent medical attention!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agree i think they should be 6 or 7 cars at least . Intercity length

I agree. Fortunately there will be more relatively cheap Mk3s available in short order to extend them should this be necessary - much cheaper than DMU lengthening.

 

[clc]

How far north would the wires have to reach to make hybrids worthwhile? Perth? Dundee? Or would Stirling be enough?

 

[Altnabreac]

How far north would the wires have to reach to make hybrids worthwhile? Perth? Dundee? Or would Stirling be enough?

I think it depends how well bi-modes work and what the future plans are.

Stirling or Perth is probably enough if the intention is there to keep wiring northwards. You could even see Glasgow - Aberdeen fully wired before Fife is done.

 

[Altnabreac]

That's simply not true though is it?

Nothing much is being built and you still can't get to Lossiemouth, Callander, St Andrew's, Kinross, Methil, Crieff, Peebles and many others by train.

Crieff and Callander are absolute non existent business cases that could never work.

Peebles and St Andrews are very weak business cases which combined with little regeneration opportunity means they won't seriously be looked at.

Lossiemouth you could maybe see an extension of a new hourly Inverness - Elgin service if line was there but it won't justify the capital cost for reopening.

Kinross on its own has no justification but might just work as a stop on a new fast line to Perth.

Methil is fair enough. That line does need to reopen.

 

[NotATrainspott]

A Hitachi variant, like whats been ordered by GW for the non-electrified routes into Cornwall, would be a good HST replacement, if it had enough installed power - being bimode, could get the benefit of running under the wires. In fact, I'm almost suprised that an add on order for these wasn't chosen over HST. The fuel cost of HST will be horrendous (offset by very low leasing charges though)-heard a quote of 800% increase over 158s/170s!

In an early version of the IEP plans, the DfT said that there was a possibility of Transport Scotland ordering 20 or so of them for its long distance services. Obviously nothing came of that, but that makes sense. The AT300 design is meant for a 140mph max speed, when the trains would never go above 100mph. There's basically no loss for Scotland if the max speed went down but there would be a lot of gain, in terms of capacity and cost. Hitachi presumably can whip up a bi-mode that would fit the bill but they've got little need to, when they've got three plants churning out AT300s as fast as they can.

Just as anyone wanting a 125mph bi-mode goes to Hitachi, anyone wanting a 100mph bi-mode will be going to Stadler. Their basic design would be perfect for Scotland, as it would provide multiple unit flexibility and capacity but without underfloor engines. I'm sure they could even come up with a quasi-HST design where the engine kit is fitted in the driving vehicles and there's an uninterrupted passenger section in between them.

What I see happening is that the HSTs and the 15x trains would be replaced together. The basic design of the Stadler sets would suit scenic train duties as well, even if the bi-mode utility weren't desperately needed. A pair of scenic trains coupled together would be approximately equivalent to an HST replacement, so the two types could interwork so that heavy maintenance could be done in one central location for all of Scotland.

 

[InOban]

Crieff and Callander are absolute non existent business cases that could never work.

Peebles and St Andrews are very weak business cases which combined with little regeneration opportunity means they won't seriously be looked at.

Lossiemouth you could maybe see an extension of a new hourly Inverness - Elgin service if line was there but it won't justify the capital cost for reopening.

Kinross on its own has no justification but might just work as a stop on a new fast line to Perth.

Methil is fair enough. That line does need to reopen.

Doune and Callander are increasingly important commuter dormitories. Unfortunately the formation has been extensively built on in Dunblane and Doune, never mind Callander. Otherwise it would have been a useful stub like Alloa.

 

[marks87]

I seem to remember there being much at the franchise award about the "Seven Cities"?

I can well see there being a City Connect or 7 citys express type brand used for these services although hope they dont as it will only serve them look rather silly when an HST goes bang and a gutless cattletruck 170 steps in instead.

It would also be a bit silly announcing a service as a "Seven Cities Express" because there's no service that actually connects all seven. A hypothetical Inverness-Glasgow via Aberdeen, Dundee, Perth and Stirling would come close, but poor old Edinburgh is missed out.

 

[Emblematic]

In an early version of the IEP plans, the DfT said that there was a possibility of Transport Scotland ordering 20 or so of them for its long distance services. Obviously nothing came of that, but that makes sense. The AT300 design is meant for a 140mph max speed, when the trains would never go above 100mph. There's basically no loss for Scotland if the max speed went down but there would be a lot of gain, in terms of capacity and cost. Hitachi presumably can whip up a bi-mode that would fit the bill but they've got little need to, when they've got three plants churning out AT300s as fast as they can.

Just as anyone wanting a 125mph bi-mode goes to Hitachi, anyone wanting a 100mph bi-mode will be going to Stadler. Their basic design would be perfect for Scotland, as it would provide multiple unit flexibility and capacity but without underfloor engines. I'm sure they could even come up with a quasi-HST design where the engine kit is fitted in the driving vehicles and there's an uninterrupted passenger section in between them.

What I see happening is that the HSTs and the 15x trains would be replaced together. The basic design of the Stadler sets would suit scenic train duties as well, even if the bi-mode utility weren't desperately needed. A pair of scenic trains coupled together would be approximately equivalent to an HST replacement, so the two types could interwork so that heavy maintenance could be done in one central location for all of Scotland.

You do wonder if Firstgroup or any of the other bidders put this forward in their rolling stock plans. Back in 2014, the Hitachi product hadn't arrived so it, or any other bimode would have been taken purely on spec.
One advantage that the HSTs give is it allows these offerings to become established and mature, so Scotrail can replace the HSTs when needed without dealing with a new type introduction, if it so chooses. The scope and schedule of the electric network will also be clearer by then.

 

[dcsprior]

Crieff and Callander are absolute non existent business cases that could never work.

Peebles and St Andrews are very weak business cases which combined with little regeneration opportunity means they won't seriously be looked at.

Lossiemouth you could maybe see an extension of a new hourly Inverness - Elgin service if line was there but it won't justify the capital cost for reopening.

Kinross on its own has no justification but might just work as a stop on a new fast line to Perth.

Methil is fair enough. That line does need to reopen.

So, if someone asked you which were clear candidates for reopening, your answer would be "Methil, no more"

<gets coat>

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk

 

[Gadget88]

Can't believe 40 year old trains will replace trains around 10-15 years old.

Madness.

It's as bad as that old train they run on the fife circle.

 

[47271]

Can't believe 40 year old trains will replace trains around 10-15 years old.

Madness.

It's as bad as that old train they run on the fife circle.

Easy to criticise but what would you have done? Persist with the 170s for another ten years?

 

[Altnabreac]

So, if someone asked you which were clear candidates for reopening, your answer would be "Methil, no more"

<gets coat>

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk

And If I were Chris Green writing in 1986 my answer would have been "Bathgate no more"

 

[Emblematic]

Can't believe 40 year old trains will replace trains around 10-15 years old.

Madness.

It's as bad as that old train they run on the fife circle.

So - 30 year old trains to replace (or at least supplement) 15 year old trains on Portsmouth-Waterloo. Very well received by local commuters, who had been pressuring for this or an equivalent upgrade ever since the same trains now returning were first retired. Moral - newer does not always mean better.

 

[destere]

Can't believe 40 year old trains will replace trains around 10-15 years old.

Madness.

It's as bad as that old train they run on the fife circle.

The reality of the situation is much more complex than age, and anyone who knows anything about the situation (I mean real facts) will know that the HST will be more appropriate.

Please look up the word pragmatic.

 

[Gadget88]

Easy to criticise but what would you have done? Persist with the 170s for another ten years?

Yes much more comfortable.

Having seen the interior on the new electric trains the Glasgow Edinburgh line is in for a downgrade with less plush seats and worse first class.

If 170's are so bad why are 158's still running in 2017? I'd phase them out first or some of the ancient trains they have running from Glasgow central.

If Scotrail needed this type of train new ones would have been preferable. Also it means longer stops stations as they are slam door ones most likely.

 

[Blindtraveler]

If you read the opening few posts on here you will find that they are having power doors fitted.

Whilst I still say these will be too short the upgrade in general will be welcome on services which in the 80s saw a mixture of HST and loco hauled, both of which vanished when sprinterisation saw 156s and then 158s running these lines followed by 170s. Each change brought good and bad with them and this has been well discussed but reintroducing/introducing HSTs will put right 3 deckades or so of gradule downgrades on Scottish Intercity with a drastic stepchange in quality and also bring that quality to a route namely Aberdeen Inverness thats not previously been viewed as an intercity type route.

 

[najaB]

Also it means longer stops stations as they are slam door ones most likely.

If you are going to post please do everyone a favour and read the thread first.

 

[Gadget88]

If they run these trains for ten years that would make them 50 years old by which time Virgin easy coat will be in a rail museum maybe in York as they have new trains from 2018.

I blame the Scottish government I read it's as on the franchise that they wanted these types of trains if I'm correct in thinking?

The changes to Scotrail trains remind me of Transpenine read they will get new trains and they are refitting trains that ain't even that old. Some operators like to upgrade more frequently than others.

 

[Gadget88]

If you read the opening few posts on here you will find that they are having power doors fitted.

Whilst I still say these will be too short the upgrade in general will be welcome on services which in the 80s saw a mixture of HST and loco hauled, both of which vanished when sprinterisation saw 156s and then 158s running these lines followed by 170s. Each change brought good and bad with them and this has been well discussed but reintroducing/introducing HSTs will put right 3 deckades or so of gradule downgrades on Scottish Intercity with a drastic stepchange in quality and also bring that quality to a route namely Aberdeen Inverness thats not previously been viewed as an intercity type route.

Yes but for me Stirling to Aberdeen isn't that long a journey.

Perhaps Inverness might benefit. I got an old Virgin East coast with the low seats old interior a few years ago and I never enjoyed it. If people wanted to travel with these trains they could use Virgin.

I enjoy Cross country trains and Virgin west coast as they resemble a 170 more than these old trains Virgin east coast use.

 

[najaB]

I got an old Virgin East coast with the low seats old interior a few years ago and I never enjoyed it. If people wanted to travel with these trains they could use Virgin.

GNER replaced the IC70 seats almost a decade ago. VTEC does (did?) have a set with the old style seats on loan recently but that is only one out of the eighteen that they operate.

 

[daikilo]

If you read the opening few posts on here you will find that they are having power doors fitted.

Whilst I still say these will be too short the upgrade in general will be welcome on services which in the 80s saw a mixture of HST and loco hauled, both of which vanished when sprinterisation saw 156s and then 158s running these lines followed by 170s. Each change brought good and bad with them and this has been well discussed but reintroducing/introducing HSTs will put right 3 deckades or so of gradule downgrades on Scottish Intercity with a drastic stepchange in quality and also bring that quality to a route namely Aberdeen Inverness thats not previously been viewed as an intercity type route.

I tend to agree that the HST sets will attract additionel custom and will thus need additional seating. However, I have no idea how the economics will work unless they arrived for free.

 

[jingsmonty]

I agree. Class 68 and coaches would be good.

But wouldn't have anything like the performance of a 4+2 or 5+2 HST...

 

[jingsmonty]

GNER replaced the IC70 seats almost a decade ago. VTEC does (did?) have a set with the old style seats on loan recently but that is only one out of the eighteen that they operate.

It's an ex EMT set - personally, I prefer the IC70 seats(apart from the rubber armrests!) - VTEC seats have similar horrid forward pitch (although not as bad) as GW grammer seats

 

[jingsmonty]

In an early version of the IEP plans, the DfT said that there was a possibility of Transport Scotland ordering 20 or so of them for its long distance services. Obviously nothing came of that, but that makes sense. The AT300 design is meant for a 140mph max speed, when the trains would never go above 100mph. There's basically no loss for Scotland if the max speed went down but there would be a lot of gain, in terms of capacity and cost. Hitachi presumably can whip up a bi-mode that would fit the bill but they've got little need to, when they've got three plants churning out AT300s as fast as they can.

Just as anyone wanting a 125mph bi-mode goes to Hitachi, anyone wanting a 100mph bi-mode will be going to Stadler. Their basic design would be perfect for Scotland, as it would provide multiple unit flexibility and capacity but without underfloor engines. I'm sure they could even come up with a quasi-HST design where the engine kit is fitted in the driving vehicles and there's an uninterrupted passenger section in between them.

What I see happening is that the HSTs and the 15x trains would be replaced together. The basic design of the Stadler sets would suit scenic train duties as well, even if the bi-mode utility weren't desperately needed. A pair of scenic trains coupled together would be approximately equivalent to an HST replacement, so the two types could interwork so that heavy maintenance could be done in one central location for all of Scotland.

Sounds plausible - don't know much about the Stadler trains, but tgey sound decent. The 1t8s (even the refurbished ones) are falling to bits & look their age

 

[Grinner]

And If I were Chris Green writing in 1986 my answer would have been "Bathgate no more"

Also "Linwood no more"?

(Off topic but a station at Linwood would be very possible as part of re-opening to Bridge of Weir/Kilmalcolm).

 

[Highland37]

But wouldn't have anything like the performance of a 4+2 or 5+2 HST...

Yes but I am sort of pressuming that the HML gets some upgrades by then which moves us on from when it was built. Killiekrankie Tunnel for example.

 

[43096]

GNER replaced the IC70 seats almost a decade ago. VTEC does (did?) have a set with the old style seats on loan recently but that is only one out of the eighteen that they operate.

VTEC have fifteen sets (EC51-64, NL65) of which two (EC64 and NL65) have the superior original seats.

 

[DarloRich]

Can't believe 40 year old trains will replace trains around 10-15 years old.

Madness.

It's as bad as that old train they run on the fife circle.

dear me. it isnt the age but the quality, comfort and numbers that are important.

Trying to make some kind of SNP message out of nothing?

 

[CosherB]

Can't believe 40 year old trains will replace trains around 10-15 years old.

Madness.

It's as bad as that old train they run on the fife circle.

And as others have already posted, what proportion of the HST (particularly the power cars) is actually 40 years old?