Virgin heavy handed but right....

[AlterEgo]

Which makes you question whether his behaviour was really as bad as some are claiming. If he abused and pushed past the RPI would he have really been offered an excess? Would Virgin have agreed to carry him at all?

Some fella bought it for him at the ticket office, who probably didn't know what had happened at the gate line, which is far away (not sure if they are connected by radio). He really did push his way past the gateline; read the story and watch the video, where he is escorted from the platform side to back in front of the gateline by the police. How do you think he got there after being told his ticket wasn't valid?

Nobody is suggesting he was abusive to anyone at any point.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm entirely on Virgin's side with this. We now live in a society where coming close to questioning somebody's disability can start talks about human rights breaches (hyperbole, I know).

So to protect those who are actualy disabled, there needs to be formal documentation to show who is eligible for certain discounts etc, otherwise the inability to verify disabilty will lead to withdrawal of such discounts across the board. Which screws all those with a disability.

In this case there was no dispute whatsoever about the gentleman's disability. He has one leg.

The only thing in dispute is the whereabouts of his railcard - and from Virgin's perspective whether he had one. The point is, the railcard costs money to buy and you don't just get it because you're disabled. An applicant's disability is verified when purchasing the railcard.

Re: your suggestion - What happens when you lose your proof of disability?

 

[Bertie the bus]

Some fella bought it for him at the ticket office, who probably didn't know what had happened at the gate line, which is far away. He really did push his way past the gateline; read the story and watch the video, where he is escorted from the platform side to back in front of the gateline by the police. How do you think he got there after being told his ticket wasn't valid?

Nobody is suggesting he was abusive to anyone at any point.

I've seen the video. Trying to guess how he got platform side of the block isn't proof he "pushed past" anybody. It's irrelevant who bought the ticket and from where. The BTP were in attendance and if the RPI had claimed to be pushed, i.e. assaulted, they would probably have escorted him off the station, not just asked him to leave the platform.

 

[BestWestern]

I've seen the video. Trying to guess how he got platform side of the block isn't proof he "pushed past" anybody. It's irrelevant who bought the ticket and from where. The BTP were in attendance and if the RPI had claimed to be pushed, i.e. assaulted, they would probably have escorted him off the station, not just asked him to leave the platform.

If the RPI had claimed to have been assaulted, I would hope that the BTP would do more than simply escort the alleged assailant off the station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Re: your suggestion - What happens when you lose your proof of disability?

In Germany they do have that - the Schwerbehindertenausweis. But if you'd just had your wallet nicked, you'd have lost that too.

Really, in this case the disability is only of relevance to the extent of the RPI allegedly having rather stupidly gobbed off and by doing so having destroyed his credibility and allowed this rather silly situation to arise.

Really, this is a "person lost/had stolen Railcard and was bothered that they had to buy a new ticket" story, and without the RPI's alleged stupid comment that's all it would have been unless the person affected was playing "do you know who I am", in which case he deserves to be treated precisely as per the rules with no discretion applied simply for failing the classic attitude test.

 

[Llanigraham]

So to protect those who are actualy disabled, there needs to be formal documentation to show who is eligible for certain discounts etc, otherwise the inability to verify disabilty will lead to withdrawal of such discounts across the board. Which screws all those with a disability.

There is!
It is the evidence you are required to provide when you apply for your Disabled Rail Card; in my case a copy of the "battery book" provided with my NHS hearing aid.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In this case there was no dispute whatsoever about the gentleman's disability. He has one leg.

Ironically, thanks to welfare benefit "reform", even that doesn't prove eligibility to a disabled person's railcard. Eligibility for PIP- the main qualifying benefit for a railcard- is assessed with the applicant using any aids. So if the guy is a dab hand with his prosthetic leg then he might not actually be entitled to the railcard.

 

[AlterEgo]

I've seen the video. Trying to guess how he got platform side of the block isn't proof he "pushed past" anybody. It's irrelevant who bought the ticket and from where. The BTP were in attendance and if the RPI had claimed to be pushed, i.e. assaulted, they would probably have escorted him off the station, not just asked him to leave the platform.

I didn't mean for "pushing past" to imply actually aggressively or physically moving someone out of the way, rather simply striding forward without permission, contact or no contact.

How do you think he got there then, if he didn't just walk through without permission and without a valid railcard?

 

[Llanigraham]

Ironically, thanks to welfare benefit "reform", even that doesn't prove eligibility to a disabled person's railcard. Eligibility for PIP- the main qualifying benefit for a railcard- is assessed with the applicant using any aids. So if the guy is a dab hand with his prosthetic leg then he might not actually be entitled to the railcard.

Not correct.
There is no way I would ever be eligible for PIP, but I am still fully entitled to have a Disabled Adult Rail card.
Perhaps you need to read the criteria again.

 

[Camden]

I am always wary of these events that are "on camera". Since there aren't many people that walk around with a permanent film running it's obviously subjective from both perspective and time-frame captured.

Had it been a "selfie" video by the gate line in front of bemused looking staff I already wouldn't automatically take the man's side. Being that the video shows him being ushered out of the ramp area by two policemen only serves to make me wonder what he did/how he did it to warrant that sort of attention.

This is not to say that some people don't have all the customer service skills of a dodgy used car salesman being asked for a refund, but given the story behind all this I have a hunch that if I was in this man's place the gate line staff might have let me through or spoken to the train manager for me, with all possibly parting on good terms.

Obviously it gets busy sometimes but I've never had a problem with Euston mainline staff myself.

 

[CheesyChips]

Re: your suggestion - What happens when you lose your proof of disability?

Same thing you do if you lose anything else, passport, driving license, blue badge.

 

[Chew Chew]

From reading his twitter I quickly lost any sympathy for him.

He was in a situation of his own making, Virgin offered him an apology which he declined and then he is playing the compensation card.

 

[nanstallon]

Rules is rules! You are right, with the strict application of the rules he should have bought a new ticket.

Some commentators think that a little empathy and understanding would have been useful in this situation - issuing an UFN and letting the guy travel would not have escalated the situation and he would not have attempted to force his way onto the train. He was wrong, but the situation could have been avoided.

Let's hope you never find yourself in a situation where a little leeway would be helpful, but is denied.

Railways do attract people with a jobsworth mentality. I'd have thought that discretion could have been applied - guy with one leg has a ticket, and says he has lost his disabled railcard, surely he could have been given the benefit of the doubt. If he had bought the original ticket at a ticket office, he'd have had to produce his railcard.

 

[nanstallon]

Ironically, thanks to welfare benefit "reform", even that doesn't prove eligibility to a disabled person's railcard. Eligibility for PIP- the main qualifying benefit for a railcard- is assessed with the applicant using any aids. So if the guy is a dab hand with his prosthetic leg then he might not actually be entitled to the railcard.

What a kindhearted, caring, country we now live in! Many servicemen lost a leg (or both) in fighting for their country, and perhaps could be shown a little respect and leniency. A sad case.

 

[Harbouring]

Railways do attract people with a jobsworth mentality. I'd have thought that discretion could have been applied - guy with one leg has a ticket, and says he has lost his disabled railcard, surely he could have been given the benefit of the doubt. If he had bought the original ticket at a ticket office, he'd have had to produce his railcard.

He had a mobile ticket and was validating it at the gate line and was asked for his railcard, if he had a ticket that didn't need to be validated he probably doesn't get asked for his railcard (in my own experience).

The thing about the benefit of the doubt in this situation is you'd be giving it because they look disabled whereas you'd never give someone with a less obvious disability the same benefit which enables a two tier disability system that disability campaigners are trying to eliminate. This is why we have equity through the disabled railcard in which no person can have their disability questioned as it's proof of eligibility.

This is not to absolve some of the language used by the gate line staff, nothing makes me angrier than questioning of disability no matter how obvious it may be. It also doesn't absolve the way the chap went about his business either

 

[AlterEgo]

Railways do attract people with a jobsworth mentality. I'd have thought that discretion could have been applied - guy with one leg has a ticket, and says he has lost his disabled railcard, surely he could have been given the benefit of the doubt. If he had bought the original ticket at a ticket office, he'd have had to produce his railcard.

He had an e-ticket.

Person looks about 21, says they've lost their 16-25 railcard. Same discretion? Just believe everyone?

 

[Haywain]

Railways do attract people with a jobsworth mentality. I'd have thought that discretion could have been applied - guy with one leg has a ticket, and says he has lost his disabled railcard, surely he could have been given the benefit of the doubt. If he had bought the original ticket at a ticket office, he'd have had to produce his railcard.

He would have had to produce the railcard at the time of purchase, but there remains a requirement to carry the railcard at the time of travel and to be able to produce it on request.

 

[AlterEgo]

He would have had to produce the railcard at the time of purchase, but there remains a requirement to carry the railcard at the time of travel and to be able to produce it on request.

Not forgetting that a Disabled Railcard doesn't have a photo so it can easily be purchased by proxy, or by someone who isn't entitled to the railcard "borrowing" another's.

Academic though as he bought online and had an e-ticket.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Person looks about 21, says they've lost their 16-25 railcard. Same discretion? Just believe everyone?

Well, quite.

What seems to be getting overlooked is that a) being disabled doesn't mean you have a disabled person's railcard and b) appearing to look disabled doesn't mean that you are entitled to a disabled person's railcard.

As you say, you wouldn't get the same response if it was someone who obviously looked 17 who had lost or "lost" their 16-24 railcard.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

It's basically a paper for professional victims who think everything is out to get them and they should be entitled to everything, and that everything is a conspiracy. Very left wing, but not only that.

basically , unhappy that the 'mainstream media ' either check facts ( the few decent papers and the broadcasters) or aren;t sympathetic to their whinging ( redtops even the mirror, and the Heily Fail / sexpest ) ...