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Could there be an export market for MK3-based EMUs?

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90sWereBetter

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This is probably going to be shot down within 30 seconds, but I was wondering, with scores of 317/319/321s coming off lease in the next few years with seemingly little chance of further service in this country, could some of the ROSCOs offer these sets to operators abroad, either as full trains or maybe cut down to three carriages? Certainly the 321s could probably do another 10 years with a decent refurb (NOT THE CRAPPY RENATUS REFURB WHICH CAN DIE IN A FIRE <( ). Would Bulgaria or even New Zealand have a need for more stock?
 
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chubs

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I don't think there are many countries who are interested in life expired stock that is only fit for the scrap heap.

Presumably they can buy much better new stock cheaper just like our TOC's, unless the ROSCOs heavily discount it to the point its worth less than the scrap value which would be silly.
 

mallard

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Bulgaria might take a few if they're cheap enough. They're probably in better condition than the ER25s at least...

I suppose most of the Mk3 EMUs are old enough to be scrapped though... If the current transport minister wasn't the most anti-rail since Marples, there are plenty of small commuter lines that could be modernised for them. No worse than the use of 303s in West Yorkshire...
 

CosherB

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This is probably going to be shot down within 30 seconds, but I was wondering, with scores of 317/319/321s coming off lease in the next few years with seemingly little chance of further service in this country, could some of the ROSCOs offer these sets to operators abroad, either as full trains or maybe cut down to three carriages? Certainly the 321s could probably do another 10 years with a decent refurb (NOT THE CRAPPY RENATUS REFURB WHICH CAN DIE IN A FIRE <( ). Would Bulgaria or even New Zealand have a need for more stock?

Why should we assume that we can fob-off our near-expired rolling stock to other countries?

There's nothing wrong with the concept of a Renatus-type refurbishment if done properly.
 

MarkyT

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Primarily it probably depends on how easy it would be to modify them to step-entrance, as most countries are low-platform compared with the UK.

Just like western Europe, most networks around the World are attempting to improve platform stepping distance and in particular to eliminate the need to climb multiple steps into rail vehicles.

Railways with UK style high platforms tend to be 3' 6" cape gauge systems in former British colonies, so like the Mk2s that went to New Zealand, new wheelsets and bogies would be required, not such an easy or affordable proposition with the powered bogies of EMUs. Perhaps the vehicles could be re-bogied as unpowered trailer sets with their driving cabs used for push pull operation with other traction.
 

A0

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Bulgaria might take a few if they're cheap enough. They're probably in better condition than the ER25s at least...

I suppose most of the Mk3 EMUs are old enough to be scrapped though... If the current transport minister wasn't the most anti-rail since Marples, there are plenty of small commuter lines that could be modernised for them. No worse than the use of 303s in West Yorkshire...

Go on - humour us - which "small commuter lines" would you go putting the Mk3 EMUs on?

Some of the Mk3 EMUs are already being reused on commuter lines i.e. between Liverpool and Manchester.

But where else? Scotrail doesn't need them as its getting new EMUs currently, Greater Anglia don't want them as they've got Stadlers on order, West Mids don't want them as they're the wrong length and don't perform as well as the 323s for the Brum cross city, they're no good for Merseyrail as they won't fit down the tunnels etc.
 

sprinterguy

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No worse than the use of 303s in West Yorkshire...
Class 303s were never used in West Yorkshire, there were class 307s used on Leeds - Doncaster services and class 308s used on the Airedale & Wharfedale lines. Class 303 units were drafted into the Manchester area in the early to mid eighties.

Overall though I agree with your point that secondhand EMUs could be used to improve the case for electrification of provincial commuter routes, were it not for the current cooling of attitudes towards electrification. It seems a shame that swathes of 4-car electric units, with life left in them if desired, are coming off lease with no further work available to them when a number of Britain's cities are struggling with crowding issues on ageing diesel fleets.
 
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Bertie the bus

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I suppose most of the Mk3 EMUs are old enough to be scrapped though... If the current transport minister wasn't the most anti-rail since Marples, there are plenty of small commuter lines that could be modernised for them. No worse than the use of 303s in West Yorkshire...

Current electrification schemes are taking longer and costing significantly more than anticipated but you think none of that matters and electrification schemes can just be added and completed in a couple of years when these trains will be available. No Class 303 ever worked in West Yorkshire.
 

mallard

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Go on - humour us - which "small commuter lines" would you go putting the Mk3 EMUs on?

Plenty of lines around Manchester (e.g. Buxton), Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester still struggling along with diesels. Maybe even around Newcastle for lines that haven't been converted to metro.

Statistically, by peak percentage of passengers in excess of capacity, Leicester has the third most overcrowded peak-time trains in England/Wales (according to a 2014 report; London 4.1%, Manchester 3.3%, Leicester 2.0%) and the most overcrowded with no modern railways, so putting them on Leicester-Nottingham and/or Leicester-Birmingham would do wonders.

Considering how bad the rail network is in the Leicester area, there's almost definitely quite a bit of suppressed demand. Might be able to make the Leicester - Birmingham route achieve something better than the pitiful ~45mph average speed of the fastest services too.

They'd also serve well for the local/secondary services on a modernised Manchester - Leeds - York link.

Current electrification schemes are taking longer and costing significantly more than anticipated but you think none of that matters and electrification schemes can just be added and completed in a couple of years when these trains will be available. No Class 303 ever worked in West Yorkshire.

Whoops, meant 308s...

I don't think "none of that matters", I think the problems are primarily due to lack of institutional experience (GW was the first main-line modernisation programme in ~25 years), mismanagement and overspecification. Pretty much everywhere else in Europe (even Eastern Europe!) is able to have all their significant intercity and commuter lines operating with electric traction. There's no excuse for the UK's woeful lack of wires. Why can't we bring in experts from elsewhere if we're unable to do it properly?
 
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AverageTD

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Not Europe. Most countries have low floor railways and have trains more modern than uk so I deem it unlikely
 

61653 HTAFC

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Current electrification schemes are taking longer and costing significantly more than anticipated but you think none of that matters and electrification schemes can just be added and completed in a couple of years when these trains will be available. No Class 303 ever worked in West Yorkshire.

Come on, 303 was obviously a typo for 308... though don't forget that the only reason the 308s came was a refusal by government to fund another batch of 323s (which would also have created jobs local to the operating area and might have saved the Hunslet TPL works in Leeds).

Past exports of surplus stock have been down to a combination of contraction of the British system (109s et al to Africa and the Caribbean); the purchasing country/operator having a limited budget (141s to Iran); and non-standard stock being eliminated (109s again, EM2s).

I don't believe any of those factors are in place at the moment, other than a surfeit of UK stock and not enough electrified lines to use them. New build is cheaper than it was, and Chinese/Middle-Eastern investment in many Asian and African systems mean that there's a convenient supply-chain from the likes of CSRE. Even those places that did use old BR stuff have now found themselves able to replace those with new build. The only advantage is lead-time and if anything more than a refurbishment and fitting of required signalling equipment is needed, even that is marginal.
 

A0

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Plenty of lines around Manchester (e.g. Buxton), Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester still struggling along with diesels. Maybe even around Newcastle for lines that haven't been converted to metro.

Statistically, by peak percentage of passengers in excess of capacity, Leicester has the third most overcrowded peak-time trains in England/Wales (according to a 2014 report; London 4.1%, Manchester 3.3%, Leicester 2.0%) and the most overcrowded with no modern railways, so putting them on Leicester-Nottingham and/or Leicester-Birmingham would do wonders.

Considering how bad the rail network is in the Leicester area, there's almost definitely quite a bit of suppressed demand. Might be able to make the Leicester - Birmingham route achieve something better than the pitiful ~45mph average speed of the fastest services too.

They'd also serve well for the local/secondary services on a modernised Manchester - Leeds - York link.

Well, since MML electrification has been deferred and the cross country line between Birmingham and Leicester was never slated for electrification - that's not even a sensible suggestion.

Most of the lines you're thinking of are not "commuter services" per se but medium distance rural services. And the D-319s may provide the answer - which again, is reusing MK3 EMUs.

Of the others, the 321s might find a home with either Scot Rail or Northern who already operate virtually identical units and will give capacity.

But the oldest 317s are nearly 40 years old now - so their time has to be considered limited.

I suspect the Leicester - Birmingham average speed has more to do with linespeed and signalling than the rolling stock - given they use Turbostars on those routes - and those were capable of keeping Intercity times on the MML.
 
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61653 HTAFC

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Well, since MML electrification has been deferred and the cross country line between Birmingham and Leicester was never slated for electrification - that's not even a sensible suggestion.

Most of the lines you're thinking of are not "commuter services" per se but medium distance rural services. And the D-319s may provide the answer - which again, is reusing MK3 EMUs.

Of the others, the 321s might find a home with either Scot Rail or Northern who already operate virtually identical units and will give capacity.

But the oldest 317s are nearly 40 years old now - so their time has to be considered limited.

I suspect the Leicester - Birmingham average speed has more to do with linespeed and signalling than the rolling stock - given they use Turbostars on those routes - and those were capable of keeping Intercity times on the MML.

Northern are ditching the 321s and 322s, so that's a non-starter (they'd be preferable to the overweight, over-complicated and older full-electric 319s, but that ship has sailed).

The "Intercity" times that 170s ran to on the MML were nothing like as demanding as is expected of the Meridians, as linespeeds were lower and the route was less busy, not to mention the higher capacity of the "old" pre-Eurostar St. Pancras.
 

mallard

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Well, since MML electrification has been deferred and the cross country line between Birmingham and Leicester was never slated for electrification - that's not even a sensible suggestion.

Sorry, I thought I was discussing lines that need modernisation, not ones that have already been done/not-yet-cancelled by our ridiculous rail-hating road-favouring transport minister.

In future I'll keep all my ideas "sensible" by seeking the approval of the D(a)fT first then...

MML was cancelled BTW, not deferred. No chance of it happening before 2050 or so.
 
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Shaw S Hunter

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We may have once exported our cast-offs to New Zealand but the likelihood of that being repeated is just about zero. Passenger services there consist of suburban services around Auckland and Wellington and a handful of tourist oriented services running longer distances. The rest have gone and New Zealand now can be considered in railway terms to resemble, at least to our eyes, a small version of Australia (sorry Kiwis!). In other words a small number of suburban networks with the rest of the network essentially being freight only with a limited number of services for tourists. Having modernised its existing suburban stock as part of 2010's 10 year recovery programme it will be some time before any further stock will be needed at which point the Chinese and Japanese will be waiting...
 

Suraggu

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Bulgaria might take a few if they're cheap enough. They're probably in better condition than the ER25s at least...

I suppose most of the Mk3 EMUs are old enough to be scrapped though... If the current transport minister wasn't the most anti-rail since Marples, there are plenty of small commuter lines that could be modernised for them. No worse than the use of 303s in West Yorkshire...

Highly unlikely Bulgaria will take them. They turned down massive Chinese investment including a new fleet, new depot, wiping off there entire debt to the EU and have a Chinese railway manufacturing plant near Sofia providing hundreds of jobs.
 

Bertie the bus

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I don't think "none of that matters", I think the problems are primarily due to lack of institutional experience (GW was the first main-line modernisation programme in ~25 years), mismanagement and overspecification. Pretty much everywhere else in Europe (even Eastern Europe!) is able to have all their significant intercity and commuter lines operating with electric traction. There's no excuse for the UK's woeful lack of wires. Why can't we bring in experts from elsewhere if we're unable to do it properly?

The problems are down to institutional experience, mismanagement and over-specification?

Do you think Network Rail and their contractors have all the experienced and competent staff locked in a cupboard somewhere waiting for these new electrification schemes you've suggested to start?

If the people doing the job now can't complete schemes on time or in budget heaven help us if they unleash people who aren't currently doing the job.

Grayling has a good point about the benefits of electrification. Unless it results in a real transformation of services I'm really beginning to think it isn't worth the years of disruption.
 
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mallard

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Do you think Network Rail and their contractors have all the experienced and competent staff locked in a cupboard somewhere waiting for these new electrification schemes you've suggested to start?

No, I'm suggesting (that means it's an opinion) that the UK completely lacks these people and we need to either hire them in from a country that does, or perform a series of smaller projects before engaging in large-scale main-line modernisation.

Look at what BR did in the 1980s: The Bed-Pan route was modernised in 1982, followed by the GEML before the ECML was tackled and that's when they still had staff with experience from the GN Suburban and WCML North schemes from the 1970s.

Since no major modernisation scheme took place between the ECML and GWML schemes, virtually all the experienced staff from the 1980s schemes had almost certainly (opinion!) retired or moved on. It would have made much more sense (in my opinion) to do the Thames Valley suburban routes (for CrossRail) and MML before attempting a project as big and complex as the GWML.

Now that NR and contractors have gained experience "the hard way" on the overly ambitious GWML project, scrapping further modernisation is even more ridiculous (in my opinion).

Grayling has a good point about the benefits of electrification.

Grayling has (in my opinion) never had a "good point" about anything in his entire career. Cancelling rail modernisation and scrapping road tolls on the same day clearly shows where (in my opinion) his priorities lie.

Unless it results in a real transformation of services I'm really beginning to think it isn't worth the years of disruption.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course (but according to the forum moderators, apparently I'm not...), but I for one would much prefer the faster, more reliable, cheaper to run and actually environmentally sane operation that only a modern railway can provide (and that one's an actual fact).
 

A0

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No, I'm suggesting (that means it's an opinion) that the UK completely lacks these people and we need to either hire them in from a country that does, or perform a series of smaller projects before engaging in large-scale main-line modernisation.

Look at what BR did in the 1980s: The Bed-Pan route was modernised in 1982, followed by the GEML before the ECML was tackled and that's when they still had staff with experience from the GN Suburban and WCML North schemes from the 1970s.

Since no major modernisation scheme took place between the ECML and GWML schemes, virtually all the experienced staff from the 1980s schemes had almost certainly (opinion!) retired or moved on. It would have made much more sense (in my opinion) to do the Thames Valley suburban routes (for CrossRail) and MML before attempting a project as big and complex as the GWML.

There were other modernisations which took place - except they didn't entail large scale electrification - which made sense at that time. The HSTs on the GW and MML were about 15 years old when the ECML was electrified, so there was little justification for replacing them which is what would have happened.

Now that NR and contractors have gained experience "the hard way" on the overly ambitious GWML project, scrapping further modernisation is even more ridiculous (in my opinion).

You are deliberately conflating "modernisation" and "electrification"

Grayling has (in my opinion) never had a "good point" about anything in his entire career. Cancelling rail modernisation and scrapping road tolls on the same day clearly shows where (in my opinion) his priorities lie.

OK - so basically your position is driven by your personal politics and prejudice rather than any form of facts.

The only road tolls I could find any record of being scrapped were / are the Servern Bridge ones - and there's a very good reason why they should now be discontinued:

"Severn Crossings plc was given the right to collect payments for 25 years as part of deal to build a second crossing in 1992. The two bridges will be operated by Highways England when they return to public ownership next year. "

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/21/severn-crossings-tolls-to-be-scrapped-next-year

In other words the tolls were in place to recoup the cost of building the second Severn crossing - the second crossing offered a shorter journey to those travelling from south of Bristol and into south Wales so both economies benefited.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course (but according to the forum moderators, apparently I'm not...), but I for one would much prefer the faster, more reliable, cheaper to run and actually environmentally sane operation that only a modern railway can provide (and that one's an actual fact).

It is not environmentally sane to run a half-empty train at the same time as allowing road congestion to balloon. It is not environmentally sane to electrify miles of railway when your main way of generating electricity is by burning oil - the only practical alternative is nuclear - which the environmental left in the UK oppose at every turn.
 

mallard

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There were other modernisations which took place - except they didn't entail large scale electrification - which made sense at that time.

A "modernisation" scheme that doesn't electrify the line is not (in my opinion) worthy of the name. I prefer to call these "mitigation" schemes, since all they're doing is attempting to mitigate the worst effects of chronic underinvestment.

Apart from semantics, the "experience" gained from such mitigation schemes isn't going to be much help for a true modernisation project...

The HSTs on the GW and MML were about 15 years old when the ECML was electrified, so there was little justification for replacing them which is what would have happened.

I wasn't suggesting that the GWML should have been modernised in the 1980s/90s (although if it were, the cascaded rolling stock would have more-or-less eliminated the need for Voyagers/Meridians)... I was suggesting that the recent modernisation schemes should have been done in a different order (smallest to largest) so as to gain experience and allow more realistic specification.

You are deliberately conflating "modernisation" and "electrification"

Correct. There is no such thing (in my opinion) as a "modern" railway that isn't electrified. As my signature says, electrification is a core requirement for any modern railway.

The only road tolls I could find any record of being scrapped were / are the Servern Bridge ones - and there's a very good reason why they should now be discontinued:

"Severn Crossings plc was given the right to collect payments for 25 years as part of deal to build a second crossing in 1992. The two bridges will be operated by Highways England when they return to public ownership next year. "

In other words the tolls were in place to recoup the cost of building the second Severn crossing - the second crossing offered a shorter journey to those travelling from south of Bristol and into south Wales so both economies benefited.

Tolls discourage driving. Driving petrol/diesel vehicles is responsible for some 15% of all CO2 emissions. They also release other toxic chemicals (especially diesels) which contribute to respiratory illness, cancer, etc. Such an environmentally disastrous activity should (in my opinion) never be encouraged.

The tolls may have been politically justified by the "recover construction costs" argument, but they serve an important environmental purpose, not to mention providing government revenue, and therefore should be kept.

It is not environmentally sane to run a half-empty train at the same time as allowing road congestion to balloon.

Which is all the more reason (in my opinion) to discourage driving and provide a modern, fast, reliable and affordable rail service...

It is not environmentally sane to electrify miles of railway when your main way of generating electricity is by burning oil - the only practical alternative is nuclear - which the environmental left in the UK oppose at every turn.

Huh? Even if the electricity is provided by burning oil (which in the UK it isn't; our energy mix is roughly 30% Gas, 25% Renewables, 22% Coal, 21% Nuclear, 2% Other including oil) it's much more efficient to burn that oil in a central power station than do it on every individual train (fact).

Not to mention that a modern train will run perfectly well on electricity from any source, so will immediately benefit from the movement towards renewables, whereas a diesel can only burn diesel fuel; something that quite apart from its environmental impact is only going to become more expensive as time goes on...
 
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CosherB

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Grayling has (in my opinion) never had a "good point" about anything in his entire career. Cancelling rail modernisation and scrapping road tolls on the same day clearly shows where (in my opinion) his priorities lie.

You should visit Merseyside and ask their fine folk what they think of tolling of the new Mersey Gateway Bridge ..... and in a UK first, the tolling of the existing Silver Jubilee Bridge when it reopens after refurbishment. :roll:
 

TRAX

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New Zealand is buying brand new trains so that will be a no thanks from us.


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