EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[radamfi]

No not at all. All this bickering about the exit bill has served to show up just how much Britain has been paying to the EU over the years. Even some remain voters are expressing discontent at the figures. Sooner we stop up the leaking tap the better.

Nobody questions the fact that we have been paying into the EU. But what if we get back more in economic activity and tax revenue? Even Brexiteers mostly agree that, financially, we will be worse off, but that is a price worth paying.

 

[HSTEd]

Barnier wants the UK to cave to his demands and it hasn't, hence the exasperation

 

[Senex]

Barnier wants the UK to cave to his demands and it hasn't, hence the exasperation

And Davis just wants the EU to cave in and let Britain have all the benefits of the trading relationship with the EU without any of the commitments, as well as not wanting to pay up for what Britain still owes. In one way they're mirror-images of each other, but it's Britain that's leaving and yet still wants those trading arrangement. Barnier knows that Britain needs the EU far more than the EU needs Britain. And with his background as a graduate of the École supérieure de commerce de Paris and his long political experience in the French and European systems, I suspect he's more than a matchfor Tory Brexiteer Davis.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Nobody questions the fact that we have been paying into the EU. But what if we get back more in economic activity and tax revenue? Even Brexiteers mostly agree that, financially, we will be worse off, but that is a price worth paying.

Indeed.

But even aside from that, there's also a basic moral issue: We are easily one of the richer countries in the World, and we are also (albeit by a smaller margin) one of the richer countries in the EU. That means that, you believe in making a better, and a fairer, world for all humanity, then clearly we are probably going to be paying in more than many other countries to any international organisation that we join.

If a wealthy individual complained about having to pay more tax than the pauper down the road, and demanded that his tax bill be reduced to no more than the pauper was paying, I imagine that just about everyone would recognise that the wealthy individual was being very selfish, and few would have much sympathy for his demands. Yet that is exactly the logic of those who demand that we should not be paying any significant net amount into the EU.

Of course, there will always be legitimate questions about whether the basis for setting EU contributions and how the money is spent is fair and wise - that's always true for any similar organisation - or indeed any Government. But it does seem to me that there is something fundamentally very nasty and self-centered in this idea that so many people - including many right-wing politicians, much of the tabloid press, and some people on these forums - put out - that we should leave the EU because we otherwise have to contribute money to it.

In the end, the UK is not the centre of the Universe. It is not the only country in the World. We live as part of a Worldwide community - of which the EU is a part - and as one of the richer countries in the World, by any moral standards, we need to accept a corresponding responsibility - including a financial responsibility - to play our part in that community.

 

[Howardh]

This is a good point - inheritance isn't earnt, so it's less regressive to increase it than other taxes, and it's less of a lottery than going by whether someone needs end-of-life care.

Of course it's earned (and taxed) unless the deceased won the lottery or something. It's been taxed once, why tax it again because they want to pass it on?
So - how to get round that - keep giving it away to your kids while you are alive? IMO when someone dies - apart from pre-existing debt - all their property and assets belongs to them, not the sodding government, and it's up to them who they want to benefit from it. If someone gives away an amount above the threshold, it will find it's way back into the economy eventually.

 

[radamfi]

Britain used to be one of the poorest members of the EEC back in the 80s. Membership of the single market helped Britain to catch up to near the EU average, before the expansion to former communist countries.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Of course it's earned (and taxed) unless the deceased won the lottery or something. It's been taxed once, why tax it again because they want to pass it on?

The answer to that is because that is fundamentally how tax works: In general, we don't tax money or wealth per se - what gets taxed is the process of transferring that money from one individual/organisation to another. Thus you pay income tax when money is transferred from your employer to you, companies pay corporation tax on profits (ie. money that is transferred from their customers to them, minus costs), and so on. I think in the UK, the only significant exception to this principle is council tax. So you could argue that the correct way to see it isn't so much as money being taxed more than once, but as each transfer of money being taxed.

I think the moral problem with inheritance tax comes in part because we tend to expect that tax usually only occurs when money is transferred as part of a purely business transaction, and we don't pay tax when money is being given within a family or friends. But inheritance in some ways falls between the two cases, making it arguable how it should be treated.

 

[northwichcat]

Britain used to be one of the poorest members of the EEC back in the 80s. Membership of the single market helped Britain to catch up to near the EU average, before the expansion to former communist countries.

Despite poorer countries than Britain being in the Euro zone, the pound has been performing more badly than the Euro since 2008. While countries like Greece bring down the value of the Euro, countries like Germany do a lot more to increase the value of the Euro.

It also should be remembered that many of the eastern European former communist countries are very small and not densely populated. I recall Vote Leave making a fuss about Montenegro potentially joining the EU in the future - a country with less inhabitants than Leeds! Unfortunately, a lot of people will have no idea what the population of Montenegro is and would have seen it as a potentially negative thing.

 

[Dave1987]

One is tempted to wonder what world our politicians are living in. It seems that David Davies's negotiating position in Brussels is based on the notion that the EU needs us so much more than we need them that we can simply make demands and that even as the party leaving the club we are the ones in the position to dictate terms. No wonder Michel Barnier is exasperated! Verhofstadt seems to be right in asserting thatg Britian has wanted special treatment all through its EU membership and now seems to expect the same to help it to leave the union.

(Does anyone else find that their sympathies are wholly with Barnier?)

Indeed. May's trip to Japan is likely to be a disaster. The Japanese have invested in the UK specifically because their businesses wanted to trade in the EU. Many are now searching for places to move their business back into the EU once the UK has left. May wasn't able to give the Japanese Govt the guarantees they wanted regarding access to EU markets. And now Fox and Davies are accusing the EU of blackmailing the Government.

 

[Dave1987]

Barnier wants the UK to cave to his demands and it hasn't, hence the exasperation

The UK will suffer more than the EU will from no deal.....

 

[yorksrob]

Of course it's earned (and taxed) unless the deceased won the lottery or something. It's been taxed once, why tax it again because they want to pass it on?
So - how to get round that - keep giving it away to your kids while you are alive? IMO when someone dies - apart from pre-existing debt - all their property and assets belongs to them, not the sodding government, and it's up to them who they want to benefit from it. If someone gives away an amount above the threshold, it will find it's way back into the economy eventually.

It's not earned by the person who inherits the wealth.

 

[bramling]

It's not earned by the person who inherits the wealth.

But it is earned, in most cases, by their family. A very natural instinct to want to provide for one 's offspring.

In any case, a hike in inheritance tax would hit ... the young ... again. For many of the current generation in their 20s or 30s inheritance may prove to be their only chance of affording a decent house.

I have no issue with inheritance tax being levied on very large estates, however I ideologically object to it being levied on a modest pass-on. For that I mean a normal family home, including those which have skyrocketed in value in the last decade, in other words the south-east. Cameron's manifesto pledge of £1m was about right in my view - a fair compromise. Did that ever get implemented?

 

[Howardh]

But it is earned, in most cases, by their family. A very natural instinct to want to provide for one 's offspring.

In any case, a hike in inheritance tax would hit ... the young ... again. For many of the current generation in their 20s or 30s inheritance may prove to be their only chance of affording a decent house.

I have no issue with inheritance tax being levied on very large estates, however I ideologically object to it being levied on a modest pass-on. For that I mean a normal family home, including those which have skyrocketed in value in the last decade, in other words the south-east. Cameron's manifesto pledge of £1m was about right in my view - a fair compromise. Did that ever get implemented?

I agree with the latter part, and yes it did - sort of. It's staged and is already partially in place so that by the end of the decade a couple (one can pass on their allowance to their spouse) can pass on assets of £1m but the house must have a value of around £300k. Roughly...something like that...

 

[fowler9]

I read in the comments under the line in the Guardian today a number of Brexiters saying that with whats gone on it seems that the EU are trying to push us out. I really couldn't comprehend their point. To say some of them came across as delusional would be a compliment. I know many people have their own well thought out reasons for leaving the EU but there is a massive chunk of that overwhelming majority that won the referendum who don't seem to have the slightest idea what they voted for and the implications.

 

[Groningen]

On/at Twitter the term Brexit and Theresa MAY gets still a lot of response. I do not have anything to say on Brexit with 1 Donald Trump across the Atlantic Ocean and taking a lot of my time. .

 

[yorksrob]

But it is earned, in most cases, by their family. A very natural instinct to want to provide for one 's offspring.

In any case, a hike in inheritance tax would hit ... the young ... again. For many of the current generation in their 20s or 30s inheritance may prove to be their only chance of affording a decent house.

I have no issue with inheritance tax being levied on very large estates, however I ideologically object to it being levied on a modest pass-on. For that I mean a normal family home, including those which have skyrocketed in value in the last decade, in other words the south-east. Cameron's manifesto pledge of £1m was about right in my view - a fair compromise. Did that ever get implemented?

I have some sympathy in that with the crazy economic situation in the South, passing on the family home is the only way some people can see of their offspring owning their own home. I view that as a consequence of the failing housing market though and its a very sorry state of affairs. In a functioning economy, working people should be able to obtain housing without having to rely on inheritance in the first place.

 

[HSTEd]

So Michael Barnier saying he does not want to "punish or blackmail the UK" but wants to "educate the British public as to the consequences of leaving"..... to be honest it sounds like something a mobster says as he raises a lump hammer over your kneecap.

 

[Hornet]

So Michael Barnier saying he does not want to "punish or blackmail the UK" but wants to "educate the British public as to the consequences of leaving"..... to be honest it sounds like something a mobster says as he raises a lump hammer over your kneecap.

Must be Barnier's inner Stalin coming out.

 

[radamfi]

I have some sympathy in that with the crazy economic situation in the South, passing on the family home is the only way some people can see of their offspring owning their own home.

But if prices in the south are grossly overvalued and the market crashes as a result, people may be able to pick up houses for a song in a few years time. Southerners have short memories. They have forgotten the days of negative equity and people saying that they would never buy a house ever again.

 

[HSTEd]

Must be Barnier's inner Stalin coming out.

"There was no sickle, but there was a hammer"

 

[Senex]

So Michael Barnier saying he does not want to "punish or blackmail the UK" but wants to "educate the British public as to the consequences of leaving"..... to be honest it sounds like something a mobster says as he raises a lump hammer over your kneecap.

It sounds to me like an eminently reasonable comment and a world away from the bluster of Davis and Fox who still seem to think that the EU must give Britain some sort of special deal.It's high time someone did educate the British public as to the consequences of leaving.

 

[Harbornite]

So Michael Barnier saying he does not want to "punish or blackmail the UK" but wants to "educate the British public as to the consequences of leaving"..... to be honest it sounds like something a mobster says as he raises a lump hammer over your kneecap.

That does have negative overtones but he is being realistic. There will be negatives.

 

[fowler9]

So Michael Barnier saying he does not want to "punish or blackmail the UK" but wants to "educate the British public as to the consequences of leaving"..... to be honest it sounds like something a mobster says as he raises a lump hammer over your kneecap.

What do you want him to do. Ruffle your hair, say you can have a free trade deal and you don't have to accept any EU immigration.... plus you pay us nothing!!!!

If you think he sounds like a mobster most Brexiters sound like people who need keeping back a year on their Economics degree.

Seriously mate what is it Brexiters want? What is it that you think is going to happen? Take your mobile phone contract, you can't just walk out of it, decide you aren't paying any more and still want to use the services.

 

[HSTEd]

What do you want him to do. Ruffle your hair, say you can have a free trade deal and you don't have to accept any EU immigration.... plus you pay us nothing!!!!

I expect him to do precisely what he is doing.
But I thought that that the language being used being similar to that associated with the mafia was an interesting tidbit.

You must remember that the EU establishment has absolutely no interest in a deal - they want the UK humiliated as an example to all others who might question their membership.

To further my earlier use of a line from Enemy at the Gate, they are now the commissar standing on the barge over the Volga as a man starts to climb over the side - with the whole group of men watching.

Seriously mate what is it Brexiters want? What is it that you think is going to happen? Take your mobile phone contract, you can't just walk out of it, decide you aren't paying any more and still want to use the services.

I have never had a mobile phone contract, I bought my phablet from ebay for ~£60 (from glorious Number 4 Guangdong People's Smartphone Factory) and have been on PAYG since before the standardisation on 07.
But at the same time many Brexiters honestly don't really care about what deal is made or not - they want to be out of the EU either way.
People who try to couch this in entirely economic terms struggle to understand their motivation as a result.

It sounds to me like an eminently reasonable comment and a world away from the bluster of Davis and Fox who still seem to think that the EU must give Britain some sort of special deal.It's high time someone did educate the British public as to the consequences of leaving.

But if he actually wants a deal - he is using exactly the wrong language.
Its like a red flag to a bull who will fall into the tradition of "Millions for defence, but not one cent for tribute"

Sounding like the EU wants a return to the Continental System is not going to make the UK compromise - it will just drive them to an extreme position of their own.

 

[bramling]

But if prices in the south are grossly overvalued and the market crashes as a result, people may be able to pick up houses for a song in a few years time. Southerners have short memories. They have forgotten the days of negative equity and people saying that they would never buy a house ever again.

I just can't see property values in the south-east crashing dramatically. Not whilst we are being told every tiny little space needs to be built over to meet 'demand', whilst many cannot but notice this is accompanied by high levels of immigration.

For as long as there is massive demand prices will always be high. The only change I can see in the short or medium term is if people's ability to pay these prices declines - thus reducing demand and if everything else stays equal price.

 

[HSTEd]

A thousand square kilometre polder in the Thames Estuary would go a long way to easing the housing issues in the South East.

But we will never be able to get that.

 

[fowler9]

I expect him to do precisely what he is doing.
But I thought that that the language being used being similar to that associated with the mafia was an interesting tidbit.

You must remember that the EU establishment has absolutely no interest in a deal - they want the UK humiliated as an example to all others who might question their membership.

To further my earlier use of a line from Enemy at the Gate, they are now the commissar standing on the barge over the Volga as a man starts to climb over the side - with the whole group of men watching.



I have never had a mobile phone contract, I bought my phablet from ebay for ~£60 (from glorious Number 4 Guangdong People's Smartphone Factory) and have been on PAYG since before the standardisation on 07.
But at the same time many Brexiters honestly don't really care about what deal is made or not - they want to be out of the EU either way.
People who try to couch this in entirely economic terms struggle to understand their motivation as a result.



But if he actually wants a deal - he is using exactly the wrong language.
Its like a red flag to a bull who will fall into the tradition of "Millions for defence, but not one cent for tribute"

Sounding like the EU wants a return to the Continental System is not going to make the UK compromise - it will just drive them to an extreme position of their own.

Jesus. The EU doesn't need a deal, you are acting like the EU couldn't function without us. The Japanese who Theresa May is visiting at the mo are wondering why the f*ck we want to leave the EU. They think we are insane.

 

[HSTEd]

Jesus. The EU doesn't need a deal, you are acting like the EU couldn't function without us.

When did I say that?
I don't expect a deal to be struck because it is not in the interests of the EU Establishment for one to be struck.
The economics make almost no difference either way.

The Japanese who Theresa May is visiting at the mo are wondering why the f*ck we want to leave the EU. They think we are insane.

This is the same Japan that is surprisingly xenophobic at home?

 

[AlterEgo]

Jesus. The EU doesn't need a deal, you are acting like the EU couldn't function without us. The Japanese who Theresa May is visiting at the mo are wondering why the f*ck we want to leave the EU. They think we are insane.

The EU is in a state of terminal decline thanks to continual mission creep, and the UK leaving only serves to accelerate that process, thanks to the Brexit effect of emboldening protectionists and nationalists globally.

As for Japan, it's interesting that such an insular and broadly monocultural country feels qualified to comment on Brexit, which was basically a protest vote against immigration. PS: Japan is a great country, but if you picked Japan up and bolted onto Europe, do you reckon they'd join the EU? Not a chance.

 

[fowler9]

When did I say that?
I don't expect a deal to be struck because it is not in the interests of the EU Establishment for one to be struck.
The economics make almost no difference either way.

This is the same Japan that is surprisingly xenophobic at home?

You said the EU has no interest in a deal. I said the EU doesn't need one. You don't need a degree to see the connection.