ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[jingsmonty]

I'm fine with Grammer seats, so long as there's enough leg room and table space. The problem with both Scotrail 158s and GWR HSTs (the main long distance applications of them) is that they've crammed far too many seats into the space available and, on GWR, too many airline seats.

The upright backs make this look worse, but I'm fine with sitting up straight, it's where I put my legs, or my laptop, that's the problem.

The Scotrail refurb will reduce the airline seat infestation that these trains have at the moment. My only concern is that the table layout will end up as cramped as we have on the 158s at the moment. Give me Scotrail 170 table spacing of Grammers and I'll be happy.

Give me Scotrail 170 seats (& pitch) as well....I happen to quite like airline seats (although definetly agree that GW have too many airline seats on their standard class HST Mk3s).

 

[jingsmonty]

So forget the power doors, forget the new buffets, forget the 2020 mods, forget the new PIS, forget the improved seating layout, forget the deep clean inside and out, forget the new interior, the ScotRail HSTs will still retain the Grammer seats, thus the refurbishment has been done on the cheap?

Yes...

 

[jingsmonty]

So forget the power doors, forget the new buffets, forget the 2020 mods, forget the new PIS, forget the improved seating layout, forget the deep clean inside and out, forget the new interior, the ScotRail HSTs will still retain the Grammer seats, thus the refurbishment has been done on the cheap?

To elaborate, they will be fantastic looking refurbished HSTs with great looking interiors which will be ruined by retaining cr*p seats (for the sake of saving money...e.g. Done on the cheap). Anyway, new interior -same seats? That's not a new interior! You've only got to look at the 158 refurbishment to see a perfect example of a 'refurb on the cheap'

 

[Clansman]

To elaborate, they will be fantastic looking refurbished HSTs with great looking interiors which will be ruined by retaining cr*p seats (for the sake of saving money...e.g. Done on the cheap). Anyway, new interior -same seats? That's not a new interior! You've only got to look at the 158 refurbishment to see a perfect example of a 'refurb on the cheap'

The seat structure is the only thing that is being reused. Everything else such as the padding, cushions, seating layout, density, size of the tables, is changing.

Just because you don't like the seats, doesn't mean to say it's done on the cheap. At the end of the day if ScotRail wanted the cost effective option, they'd have secured all their DMUs post 2018 and kept doing what they're doing what they're doing and not gave any special kind of change in service a look in.

Lighten Up

 

[MCR247]

To elaborate, they will be fantastic looking refurbished HSTs with great looking interiors which will be ruined by retaining cr*p seats (for the sake of saving money...e.g. Done on the cheap). Anyway, new interior -same seats? That's not a new interior! You've only got to look at the 158 refurbishment to see a perfect example of a 'refurb on the cheap'

I really like the seats so if ScotRail replaced them I could've accused them of throwing money away when there were perfectly good seat bases! Would you have preferred ironing boards?

 

[Clansman]

Noticed that HST stopping boards have been placed in most stations now, including smaller stations like Ladybank and Broughty Ferry.

 

[route101]

Noticed that HST stopping boards have been placed in most stations now, including smaller stations like Ladybank and Broughty Ferry.

Interesting wonder they will get regular HST service

 

[xotGD]

At the end of the day, they are tarting up 40 year old stock rather than acquiring new Mark 5s. That has to be regarded as doing things on the cheap.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At the end of the day, they are tarting up 40 year old stock rather than acquiring new Mark 5s. That has to be regarded as doing things on the cheap.

40 year old stock that is very popular with passengers.

In any case trains are more like houses than cars in longevity terms. Would you knock down a Victorian terrace and build new, or would you refurbish and rewire it?

 

[jingsmonty]

The seat structure is the only thing that is being reused. Everything else such as the padding, cushions, seating layout, density, size of the tables, is changing.

Just because you don't like the seats, doesn't mean to say it's done on the cheap. At the end of the day if ScotRail wanted the cost effective option, they'd have secured all their DMUs post 2018 and kept doing what they're doing what they're doing and not gave any special kind of change in service a look in.

Lighten Up

If the actual padding, etc, is not being used then I WILL lighten up & give them a chance - I promise! In fairness, I'm just using my experience of travelling on Scotrail 158s & a GW HST as a reference.
The main reason the HST fleet is coming to Scotrail is that I'm sure that there are incentives in the franchise agreement to reduce journey times - HST allows this without the cost of leasing brand new trains (such as AT300 that GW have ordered for west of England services) - I'm quite happy about that as it will be a chance for me to fulfill a boyhood dream & drive an HST!
I just get frustrated with Scotrail sometimes as we could have such a good service (it isn't that bad to be honest anyway), just we do see penny pinching with regards to the rolling stock (158 refurb - which isn't much more than a seat recovering/repaint). Just don't want to see tge same on HST - they deserve better!

 

[jingsmonty]

I really like the seats so if ScotRail replaced them I could've accused them of throwing money away when there were perfectly good seat bases! Would you have preferred ironing boards?

Grammer seats don't seem to be much different to ironing boards! However, another poster has stated that the padding, etc, is being replaced, so if the pitch is sorted out, they might actually be ok...

Just tilt the seat frame back slightly (so there is a bit more leg support & you can actually sit back & relax in the seat!) & they would be perfectly fine.

It's just annoying as HSTs are probably the best train that's ever been introduced in the UK & I just don't like to see them being spoiled by a cost cuttung refurb - I'll keep an open mind until I actually SEE one though...promise....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Grammer seats don't seem to be much different to ironing boards! However, another poster has stated that the padding, etc, is being replaced, so if the pitch is sorted out, they might actually be ok...

They are VERY different. I like both, to be fair, but the Grammer seat is much, much more comfortable with a far more supportive base. While quite upright it's very much a premium seat (and isn't just used in the UK), while the ironing board is a cheap commuter seat.

 

[jingsmonty]

At the end of the day, they are tarting up 40 year old stock rather than acquiring new Mark 5s. That has to be regarded as doing things on the cheap.

What would actually HAUL the mk5s? The whole reason for HST is tk reduce journey times - a Class 68 hauled rake of Mk5s wouldn't do that.

Unless...you had Mk5s with HST electrical compatibility - prob easier & more cost effective to just refurb tbe Mk3s ( which are excellent coaches anyway).

 

[jingsmonty]

They are VERY different. I like both, to be fair, but the Grammer seat is much, much more comfortable with a far more supportive base. While quite upright it's very much a premium seat (and isn't just used in the UK), while the ironing board is a cheap commuter seat.

You must be a vastly different shape to me, lol! It's the upright pitch that annoys me, rather than the lack of shape/padding..like I said, just change the pitch slightly (I like to relax when I'm travelling by train, as opposed to sitting in the crash position...) & they would be perfectly ok.

Example of a seat with a decent pitch? A Scotrail 170 seat (ironically...)

 

[jingsmonty]

They are VERY different. I like both, to be fair, but the Grammer seat is much, much more comfortable with a far more supportive base. While quite upright it's very much a premium seat (and isn't just used in the UK), while the ironing board is a cheap commuter seat.

Even the TPE 185s have decently pitched seats (even if they have even less padding than a grammer).

 

[mcmad]

What would actually HAUL the mk5s? The whole reason for HST is tk reduce journey times - a Class 68 hauled rake of Mk5s wouldn't do that.

Unless...you had Mk5s with HST electrical compatibility - prob easier & more cost effective to just refurb tbe Mk3s ( which are excellent coaches anyway).

Curious as to how you think HST's are going to improve journey times. They can't run at SP speeds so are actually running at a lower top speed than current in many places. OK acceleration might be slightly better than a 170 but am struggling to see where the big gains will come from.

 

[Clansman]

Curious as to how you think HST's are going to improve journey times. They can't run at SP speeds so are actually running at a lower top speed than current in many places. OK acceleration might be slightly better than a 170 but am struggling to see where the big gains will come from.

Ommissions of smaller stations from the Intercity timetable.

If the actual padding, etc, is not being used then I WILL lighten up & give them a chance - I promise! In fairness, I'm just using my experience of travelling on Scotrail 158s & a GW HST as a reference.
The main reason the HST fleet is coming to Scotrail is that I'm sure that there are incentives in the franchise agreement to reduce journey times - HST allows this without the cost of leasing brand new trains (such as AT300 that GW have ordered for west of England services) - I'm quite happy about that as it will be a chance for me to fulfill a boyhood dream & drive an HST!

The HSTs are coming here because there was a passenger survey, and the general conclusion was that passengers preferred rolling stock akin to HSTs for Intercity journeys, therefor, HSTs or similar specification of rolling stock would've been the starting point, then the rest such as journey time commitments and what not would revolve around the proposed Intercity rolling stock.

As other people have said, they may not be new, it may not be the most cost effective option, but at the end of the day, it's what the passengers want. And I fully support Transport Scotland for recognising this and making dedicated Intercity stock a franchise requirement, to which we are soon to reap the rewards of when the HSTs complete their noncheap refurbishment

I just get frustrated with Scotrail sometimes as we could have such a good service (it isn't that bad to be honest anyway), just we do see penny pinching with regards to the rolling stock (158 refurb - which isn't much more than a seat recovering/repaint). Just don't want to see tge same on HST - they deserve better!

I'll sympathise with you about the Grammer seats, as someone who up until recently had only used them on ScotRail 158s, my experience of them on GWR was far better, because of the better leg room. The pitch in comparison on ScotRail HSTs is going to be greater than on GWR, so hopefully, that'll make them more bearable for hard core despisers of them.

The visualisations of the proposed standard class interior show significantly larger tables than that of those currently fitted on GWR Mk3s.

 

[BRX]

As other people have said, they may not be new, it may not be the most cost effective option, but at the end of the day, it's what the passengers want.

I've nothing against the HST refurb but I'm rather sceptical about "passenger surveys".

For example, when people were asked the questions that resulted in them favouring mk3 type stock, were they aware that there was a trade-off between this, stopping frequency, and speed?

 

[380101]

Curious as to how you think HST's are going to improve journey times. They can't run at SP speeds so are actually running at a lower top speed than current in many places. OK acceleration might be slightly better than a 170 but am struggling to see where the big gains will come from.

From what I've read on the internal social media page, the Scotrail HSTs are only being cleared for 100mph running. No idea what the line speeds are North of the Clyde as I only drive as far the buffers at Central.

 

[Clansman]

From what I've read on the internal social media page, the Scotrail HSTs are only being cleared for 100mph running. No idea what the line speeds are North of the Clyde as I only drive as far the buffers at Central.

In a good few areas of the network, HSTs are permitted at higher speeds also, and factor in cutting out diddy stops, they will be able to utilise them as much as possible.

Carnoustie comes to mind with this one.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't read your post right. It's 100mph maximum running between Glasgow/Dundee/Aberdeen.

 

[Northhighland]

Ommissions of smaller stations from the Intercity timetable.



The HSTs are coming here because there was a passenger survey, and the general conclusion was that passengers preferred rolling stock akin to HSTs for Intercity journeys, therefor, HSTs or similar specification of rolling stock would've been the starting point, then the rest such as journey time commitments and what not would revolve around the proposed Intercity rolling stock.

As other people have said, they may not be new, it may not be the most cost effective option, but at the end of the day, it's what the passengers want. And I fully support Transport Scotland for recognising this and making dedicated Intercity stock a franchise requirement, to which we are soon to reap the rewards of when the HSTs complete their noncheap refurbishment



I'll sympathise with you about the Grammer seats, as someone who up until recently had only used them on ScotRail 158s, my experience of them on GWR was far better, because of the better leg room. The pitch in comparison on ScotRail HSTs is going to be greater than on GWR, so hopefully, that'll make them more bearable for hard core despisers of them.

The visualisations of the proposed standard class interior show significantly larger tables than that of those currently fitted on GWR Mk3s.

As a regular user of the Highland Mainline I welcome the introduction of the HST. A huge step forward for passengers. But let's have some honesty here. The investment in Scotrail is going on the central belt schemes and this is a cheap option for the Highlands and Aberdeen, long been the forgotten parts of Scotland when it comes to transport investment.

Better than what we have but new trains are what is needed.

 

[route:oxford]

From what I've read on the internal social media page, the Scotrail HSTs are only being cleared for 100mph running. No idea what the line speeds are North of the Clyde as I only drive as far the buffers at Central.

100mph max North of Edinburgh & Glasgow isn't it?

The main area for potential improvement to 125mph operations would probably be from Larbert to Perth.

 

[Carntyne]

As a regular user of the Highland Mainline I welcome the introduction of the HST. A huge step forward for passengers. But let's have some honesty here. The investment in Scotrail is going on the central belt schemes and this is a cheap option for the Highlands and Aberdeen, long been the forgotten parts of Scotland when it comes to transport investment.

Better than what we have but new trains are what is needed.

There's massive cash going in on Aberdeen - Inverness at the moment, along with the introduction of a proper intercity service. Hardly minimal investment.

 

[superalbs]

Even the TPE 185s have decently pitched seats (even if they have even less padding than a grammer).

They are grammer seats...

 

[Northhighland]

There's massive cash going in on Aberdeen - Inverness at the moment, along with the introduction of a proper intercity service. Hardly minimal investment.

Mmmm,.... wouldn't say massive cash, a station at culloden, one at Airport, some track improvements. Nothing at all on the scale of Edinburgh Glasgow electrification project and new rolling stock. Remember we are getting tarted up 40 year old trains. Good trains I agree but 15 ish years older than the units they replace.
Marginal improvements on timetable and that is about that. Poor relations. In every way.

 

[Clansman]

Mmmm,.... wouldn't say massive cash, a station at culloden, one at Airport, some track improvements. Nothing at all on the scale of Edinburgh Glasgow electrification project and new rolling stock. Remember we are getting tarted up 40 year old trains. Good trains I agree but 15 ish years older than the units they replace.
Marginal improvements on timetable and that is about that. Poor relations. In every way.

Compared to a lot of areas in the UK that are accustomed to cascades from the South, I can't think of anywhere which is benefitting more from this "process" than Inverness and Aberdeen.

Inverness and the Highlands don't see near enough the same amount of passengers as the central belt. The main question behind infrastructure improvements is; "We have money, who needs it most?". Does Inverness and the Highlands desperately need electrification? If so, how is that justified over let's say, Tayside and Fife?

Investing in an EGIP style infrastructure project of electrification and what not up in the Highlands, although it would be nice, the investment isn't justified when there are other areas of Scotland such as Tayside, where that sort of investment would be more beneficial.

As a regular user of the Highland Mainline I welcome the introduction of the HST. A huge step forward for passengers. But let's have some honesty here. The investment in Scotrail is going on the central belt schemes and this is a cheap option for the Highlands and Aberdeen, long been the forgotten parts of Scotland when it comes to transport investment.
But even then, up your way you are still getting hundreds of millions of pounds investment. The only difference is there are no wires, simply because you don't need them, yet.
Better than what we have but new trains are what is needed.

Is your case for new trains in the Highlands up Inverness way one of personal want, or one of actual need?

Transport Scotland are investing bucket loads into the Highlands around Inverness already, I'm failing to see your issue.

They are grammer seats...

The majority of people on this forum use "Grammer Seats" to describe Grammer's IC3000 seat. The one you are highlighting is their E3000 seat.

Still Grammer as you said, but given how the term is used on these forums it was probably meant as the IC3000.

100mph max North of Edinburgh & Glasgow isn't it?

The main area for potential improvement to 125mph operations would probably be from Larbert to Perth.

Yes, 100mph is the maximum speed.

Agree with you about that stretch of line. From Stirling to Perth and Perth to Dundee, there are large chunks of track along both stretches which could easily support 125mph running, with the right investment.

 

[Northhighland]

I agree that money needs spent in the right places where it does most good, however there is also a need to ensure economic growth and success all over Scotland. Good transport links are a necessity for the North, we certainly don't have them.

Aberdeen is eventually getting a bypass, anyone who has had to cross Aberdeen knows how awful it is, like the central belt used to be in the in the 70's, early 70's at that. The A96 is dire, takes at least 2.5 hours to get from Inverness to Aberdeen, a distance of 106 miles. No bypass for Nairn, Elgin, Keith. A 82 form Inverness to Fort William and from Fort William to Glasgow? FW to Inverness a distance of 60 miles, 1.5-2 hours. FW to Glasgow still has a couple of single track bits. Inverness to Aberdeen just got rid of last single track bridge at Inverurie. A9 north, no improvements in 10 years, rail line North? Absolute Joke.

So while everywhere else in Scotland has seen infrastructure improvements you will excuse me for being underwhelmed.

 

[JohnR]

Compared to a lot of areas in the UK that are accustomed to cascades from the South, I can't think of anywhere which is benefitting more from this "process" than Inverness and Aberdeen.

Inverness and the Highlands don't see near enough the same amount of passengers as the central belt. The main question behind infrastructure improvements is; "We have money, who needs it most?". Does Inverness and the Highlands desperately need electrification? If so, how is that justified over let's say, Tayside and Fife?

Investing in an EGIP style infrastructure project of electrification and what not up in the Highlands, although it would be nice, the investment isn't justified when there are other areas of Scotland such as Tayside, where that sort of investment would be more beneficial.



Is your case for new trains in the Highlands up Inverness way one of personal want, or one of actual need?

Transport Scotland are investing bucket loads into the Highlands around Inverness already, I'm failing to see your issue.




The majority of people on this forum use "Grammer Seats" to describe Grammer's IC3000 seat. The one you are highlighting is their E3000 seat.

Still Grammer as you said, but given how the term is used on these forums it was probably meant as the IC3000.




Yes, 100mph is the maximum speed.

Agree with you about that stretch of line. From Stirling to Perth and Perth to Dundee, there are large chunks of track along both stretches which could easily support 125mph running, with the right investment.

Judging from the speeds I've observed on 170 runs between Dundee and GSQ, theres plenty of opportunity for increased speeds north of Falkirk theres plenty of scope for 110/115 limits, compared to the 80/85s. There seems to be a short stretch where the units reach 95 just south of Hilton Junction northbound. Seems to be 85/90 along most of the Carse of Gowrie, yet almost dead straight and flat for miles on end.

 

[najaB]

Mmmm,.... wouldn't say massive cash...

It's well over £150M on Aberneen-Inverness, so if that's not a lot then you get paid too much.

 

[47271]

Haven't we had this same bellyache on north infrastructure from this same poster in the past?

So we're getting HSTs on the HML and Aberdeen-Inverness.

Aberdeen-Inverurie is getting doubled and Kintore and Dalcross stations are about to be reopened.

The A9 and A96 are being dualled.

Can we have the poster's positive, specific suggestions as to how they may realistically improve on these plans?