Summer Holiday Special Workings - more potential?

[70014IronDuke]

Someone on a thread dealing with the Nottingham-Skeggie HSTs noted that holidaymaker traffic on the line has increased beyond all expectations in recent years. It may have been the same poster suggested that with the pound under pressure, making trips abroad more expensive, and fears of terrorist attacks, there could well be a general revival of 'classical' holiday traffic demand to British resorts.

Seems quite plausible to me, indeed, perhaps the NYMR has been the most progressive TOC in the land by preempting the trend with its trains to Whitby?

But of course, it poses questions: which resorts are well placed to meet any revived demand, and not least do the TOCs have the will and/or the physical capacity in terms of stock and paths to meet it? South West Trains, of course, did have a go last year with the Waterloo - Yeovils - Weymouth serivce, but that proved a service too far.

 

[47802]

I travelled on a Number of Loco Hauled Holiday trains in the 80's and certainly some wern't that busy more Rail Enthusiasts than Passengers in some cases, and were axed probably through a combination of lack of demand, BR not having the capacity and more frequent regular services.

For instance Weymouth no longer has through XC services anymore but it does have a more frequent service to London than in the days when XC ran but obviously it does mean an XC passenger will have to change trains now.

Great Yarmouth used to have Holiday trains from a variety of destinations but obviously now it doesn't even get the London trains, but you could argue electrification is a handicap to this having to Diesel drag, and also Blackpool, obviously Blackpool will be fixed soon so that less of an excuse for Virgin not to run a London Holiday train to Blackpool, and when the Stadler Bi-mode gadgets arrive you could potentially run a through train from London to Great Yarmouth but whether that will happen remains to be seen.

There used to be a through Holiday train from Leeds to Skegness for instance would there be a demand for it today? how much has demand for holiday trains really increased again? and at the end of the day you cannot run holiday trains from everywhere to everywhere so should you even try to?

 

[PHILIPE]

The problem of running such services is that since privatisation, TOCs will not, by and large, run additional trains unless there's a profit to be made. Resource availability does not provide and scope to run seasonal extras as compared with the olden days. Charter Companies might provide trains on behalf of the TOCs but would TOCs be prepared to pay for them ?

 

[Welshman]

Arriva Trains Wales has been using one of its loco-hauled sets to provide relief services on the Crewe-Llandudno corridor the last few summer Saturdays.

This has been a welcome move when most of the regular services are 2/3 car dmus.

But I gather because of staffing uncertainties they are not announced very far in advance.

 

[47802]

The problem of running such services is that since privatisation, TOCs will not, by and large, run additional trains unless there's a profit to be made. Resource availability does not provide and scope to run seasonal extras as compared with the olden days. Charter Companies might provide trains on behalf of the TOCs but would TOCs be prepared to pay for them ?

Well indeed so and if EMT was more like Northern and didn't have the MML with potentially a couple of HST sets available would they be prepared to hire in the extra capacity for Skegness?

 

[coppercapped]

The problem of running such services is that since privatisation, TOCs will not, by and large, run additional trains unless there's a profit to be made. Resource availability does not provide and scope to run seasonal extras as compared with the olden days. Charter Companies might provide trains on behalf of the TOCs but would TOCs be prepared to pay for them ?

The TOCs' obligations are defined in the franchise contract with the DfT. The TOCs are free to run additional services, but only if no call is made on the DfT to pay for them. In other words extra services have to be self supporting or the TOC itself has to make up the difference.

Is there any argument why the taxpayer should fund holidaymakers?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The whole Track Access Rights / Vehicle Change Process and Safety Case issues make it all so horribly complicated also ......

 

[Bertie the bus]

That doesn't have to be the case though surely? For loco hauled perhaps but if Northern had spare units at weekends Leeds - Blackpool or Bridlington services shouldn't be a problem, assuming the demand existed.

 

[broadgage]

The TOCs' obligations are defined in the franchise contract with the DfT. The TOCs are free to run additional services, but only if no call is made on the DfT to pay for them. In other words extra services have to be self supporting or the TOC itself has to make up the difference.

Is there any argument why the taxpayer should fund holidaymakers?

I think that within reason, that the taxpayer SHOULD fund holidaymakers, or at least partially fund the rail travel but not the holiday itself.

This would encourage holidays in the UK and mean that money spent on the holiday circulates within the UK economy rather than being exported.
Unemployment in the leisure related industries would be reduced, with a consequent saving to the taxpayer on unemployment benefit.
Rail travel is greener than flying overseas.
Road congestion would be reduced by people taking the train instead of driving.

 

[Mag_seven]

Quite frankly given some TOC's inability to run their existing services at the weekends during the summer I don't see this ever taking off.

 

[coppercapped]

I think that within reason, that the taxpayer SHOULD fund holidaymakers, or at least partially fund the rail travel but not the holiday itself.

This would encourage holidays in the UK and mean that money spent on the holiday circulates within the UK economy rather than being exported.
Unemployment in the leisure related industries would be reduced, with a consequent saving to the taxpayer on unemployment benefit.
Rail travel is greener than flying overseas.
Road congestion would be reduced by people taking the train instead of driving.

Hmm!

The cost of getting to and from a UK holiday resort is generally a small fraction of the total cost of the holiday.

The main thing which will encourage more people to holiday in the UK is if climate change (aka 'global warming') makes Skegness at least as attractive regarding the weather as Skiathos.

And how do you collect people living all over the country - as they do - to collect at one point to make trains to the resort viable? At the most a train from one larg(ish) city to a resort could be conceivable.

If one lives on an island, air travel is a fact of life. Get used to it.

 

[paddington]

If one lives on an island, air travel is a fact of life. Get used to it.

Nothing to do with being on an island and everything to do with the distances involved. You can take a train from Wick to Athens, but you'll have to spend a week doing it.

Is there even an airport near Skegness?

 

[47802]

I think that within reason, that the taxpayer SHOULD fund holidaymakers, or at least partially fund the rail travel but not the holiday itself.

This would encourage holidays in the UK and mean that money spent on the holiday circulates within the UK economy rather than being exported.
Unemployment in the leisure related industries would be reduced, with a consequent saving to the taxpayer on unemployment benefit.
Rail travel is greener than flying overseas.
Road congestion would be reduced by people taking the train instead of driving.

But of course quite a few of UK holiday destinations are not doable by Train anyway , such as Newquay a reasonable attempt is made to serve Holiday Traffic but its within the limits of the limited capacity of the line and capacity of what XC and GWR are able to provide, at the end of the day it either has to be profitable which is only likely if the TOC has some spare stock available at weekends and can get a decent enough loading, or the TOC is directed to provide the service under its franchise agreement, and clearly the now current structure of TOC's probably doesn't help in the provision of Long Distance Holiday Trains.

 

[gerryuk]

Just a thought, there is currently a direct Nottingham - Skegness service crewed from Nottingham and there is a Nottingham - Leeds service crewed from Sheffield. Why not just join the two services together at the weekends so there is a direct through service from Leeds to Skegness It wouldn’t cost anything and no extra trains or paths would be required. The Sheffield crews just change at Nottingham and the Nottingham crews take the train onwards to Skegness.
Everybody wins with no extra cost involved, its really not rocket science.

 

[yorksrob]

I think there might be potential for a holiday service from somewhere like Leeds to Whitby.

 

[Tomnick]

Just a thought, there is currently a direct Nottingham - Skegness service crewed from Nottingham and there is a Nottingham - Leeds service crewed from Sheffield. Why not just join the two services together at the weekends so there is a direct through service from Leeds to Skegness It wouldn’t cost anything and no extra trains or paths would be required. The Sheffield crews just change at Nottingham and the Nottingham crews take the train onwards to Skegness.
Everybody wins with no extra cost involved, its really not rocket science.

If only it was that simple!

The ex-Leeds train arrives not all that long after the previous Skeg has departed each hour, and the back working leaves just before the Skeg arrives, and changing that would mean a huge recast of just about everything. There's a much better connection into and out of the Liverpool trains.

Most trains to Skegness are strengthened during the summer months, either 3- or 4- cars. That'd mean a lot of extra attaching and detaching all day long at Nottingham. They need a decent amount of time to unload, clean and load each time too, and mostly keep out of the way in the bay platform whilst doing so currently. It'd be a struggle to fit them into a through platform in each direction with a decent dwell time built in.

Nottingham (and Boston) crews don't sign 150s which semi-regularly drop onto the Leeds - Notts services.

Northern units working through to Skeg might otherwise be manageable (other than at the ends of the day where some stable at Boston, they come straight back), would it mean EMT units working through to Leeds? The diagrams are interworked with other services there.

Just a small illustration of how something that looks like a decent idea on the surface would actually turn out to be a complex set of problems!

 

[coppercapped]

Nothing to do with being on an island and everything to do with the distances involved. You can take a train from Wick to Athens, but you'll have to spend a week doing it.

Is there even an airport near Skegness?

The implication was that to get off the island flying is the obvious choice. Internal journeys are another matter. Eurostat reports:

Some 918 million passengers were carried by air in 2015 in the EU-28. The United Kingdom reported the highest number of air passengers in 2015, with 232 million or an average of 3.6 passengers per inhabitant. Relative to population size, the importance of air travel was particularly high for the holiday islands of Malta and Cyprus (10.7 and 9.0 passengers carried per inhabitant) in 2015, as well as in Iceland (14.7) and Norway (7.2).

If you live on an island, or a long thin country, flying is very important.

Train connections to the continent are limited geographically to the south east - unless someone builds something across the Dogger Bank - and car transport needs long drives, then ferries and yet more driving.

Time of journey is a consideration for many people. This being the case one has to accept the perceived environmental costs of flying.

Or, if one is really worried about the environment and the use of the aeroplane is banned completely, what is the alternative? Travelling by train to Harwich or Dover, then a ferry crossing and then yet more trains to the destination? Should that once again be the only permitted mode of travel?

When I was 15 I made such a journey for my first ever trip abroad with a school party. It took 36 hours to get from Reading to Rome. Of the 10 days, 4 were travelling - only 6 complete days were spent in Rome. Even with high speed trains - never again.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm reminded of my University field trip to the Massif Central region of France. Coach all the way from Lancaster (via a Ferry at Dover).

 

[6Gman]

Just a thought, there is currently a direct Nottingham - Skegness service crewed from Nottingham and there is a Nottingham - Leeds service crewed from Sheffield. Why not just join the two services together at the weekends so there is a direct through service from Leeds to Skegness It wouldn’t cost anything and no extra trains or paths would be required. The Sheffield crews just change at Nottingham and the Nottingham crews take the train onwards to Skegness.
Everybody wins with no extra cost involved, its really not rocket science.

Not rocket science but can still be a challenge!

(I used to do it as a job!)

Firstly, do the timings match up at Nottingham?
Secondly, do the relevant traincrew have necessary traction knowledge?
Thirdly, are the changed unit diagrams ok for elements like maintenance, fuelling and ... regular complaint on here ... toilet emptying.


(Just noticed that Tomnick had made similar - and more detailed - points.)

 

[coppercapped]

I'm reminded of my University field trip to the Massif Central region of France. Coach all the way from Lancaster (via a Ferry at Dover).

Ouch! How long it it take to get the feeling back in your legs and other important parts of your anatomy...? I remember the corridors of the youth hostel rocking, rolling and lurching for hours afterwards and the drone in my ears making hearing difficult.

 

[yorksrob]

Ouch! How long it it take to get the feeling back in your legs and other important parts of your anatomy...? I remember the corridors of the youth hostel rocking, rolling and lurching for hours afterwards and the drone in my ears making hearing difficult.

Funnily enough, I don't remember that much of the journey ! I think we stopped off at plenty of service stations do avoid deep vein thrombosis

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

That doesn't have to be the case though surely? For loco hauled perhaps but if Northern had spare units at weekends Leeds - Blackpool or Bridlington services shouldn't be a problem, assuming the demand existed.

One of the strongest trends on Northern in recent years is that the demand for services into the big cities on Saturdays is getting close to level of Monday-Friday peak hours. As such Northern doesn't have many spare units at weekends and those that are spare will often be used to further strengthen services for special events. A big challenge going forward is fitting train maintenance around that demand especially as Sunday services are also due to receive some significant increases.

 

[Cowley]

I'm reminded of my University field trip to the Massif Central region of France. Coach all the way from Lancaster (via a Ferry at Dover).

We just had a holiday in Croatia and drove there and back from Exeter via the channel tunnel.
It's a long way. My observations are - Europe is REALLY big.

 

[xotGD]

TPE ought to try a Newcastle to Scarborough through service. It could be coupled with an existing Liverpool service as far as York and split there.

Might they also be able to find a path for a Sheffield to Scarborough? Via Barnsley, Kirkgate and Cas?

 

[6Gman]

TPE ought to try a Newcastle to Scarborough through service. It could be coupled with an existing Liverpool service as far as York and split there.

Might they also be able to find a path for a Sheffield to Scarborough? Via Barnsley, Kirkgate and Cas?

1. Can they find a unit?
2. Platforming at York?
3. Good luck with the passengers for Leeds/Manchester who have sat in the rear portion and have to be turfed out at York and instructed to stand in the front unit.

 

[yorksrob]

We just had a holiday in Croatia and drove there and back from Exeter via the channel tunnel.
It's a long way. My observations are - Europe is REALLY big.

Yes, I would concur !

Even getting the train to Utrecht earlier this year seemed a fair old way.

 

[Zamracene749]

I think there might be potential for a holiday service from somewhere like Leeds to Whitby.

There is- it's provided by Transdev

 

[coppercapped]

We just had a holiday in Croatia and drove there and back from Exeter via the channel tunnel.
It's a long way. My observations are - Europe is REALLY big.

Yup!

And Alfred the Great walked to Rome in 853 as a child of four...

...they were made of tougher stuff then! Europe must have seemed HUGE!

 

[smilerish]

I think there's a market for this, but it's not those who travel abroad for their holiday. Everyone knows you should avoid driving anywhere on a bank holiday weekend if you can help it - because lots of people drive to destinations within the UK.

Isn't a key market young families looking for an affordable holiday? Why spend 4+ hours enduring traffic and children whinging in the car when you could spend quality time with them on a train, playing games, reading, etc. And if you're on a holiday service with other families, you're less conscious of disturbing other people. There's plenty of incentive already with GroupSave/family ticket deals, but the journeys could be more direct.

I'd imagine the easiest option is running faster or direct services on existing lines. So on SWR, offer a fast service from Southampton to Weymouth, or direct services to Lymington from London. On Southeastern, run fast from Dartford/Swanley/Orpington to Sheerness/Margate/Deal.

I wonder though that if this were profitable, wouldn't charter companies be doing this already? Or don't they have the stock for it? The nostalgic dining-car experience has a limited market.

 

[yorksrob]

There is- it's provided by Transdev

Would that be some sort of a motor bus ?