North should "take control" of transport

[Moonshot]

It was on BBC North West Today

Have you got the link ?

 

[notlob.divad]

Have you got the link ?

I would guess it will be here, if it is North West Today. (Well,
at least when they get around to uploading it.)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b091vnlj

 

[LOL The Irony]

It was the 1 O' Clock local news on the TV.

 

[Altfish]

In my neck of the woods there is plenty of investement happening right now.....at the moment I cant work a train from MCV to Bolton because of the fact the line is being upgraded.

Yes, there is, delayed investment in electrification, that is now being cut back.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I would guess it will be here, if it is North West Today. (Well,
at least when they get around to uploading it.)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b091vnlj

Seems like it would be

 

[Moonshot]

It was the 1 O' Clock local news on the TV.

Leaving aside your percieved shadiness of the Transport Sec, at a TSC enquiry some time ago into the long term future of Rail Transport, Network Rail stated that they saw their own position as " System Operator " as opposed to what they do now. This would then leave the actual planning and delivery of investment plans in the hands of local authorities or similar bodies. Thus a Rail North body would be responsible for that. Its actually old news , but as investment per se takes years both to plan and bear fruit, clearly there is a long road ahead before that happens. But as I pointed out earlier, it has already happened in the local aviation sector.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Translation: North should pay for its own transport needs.
Which of course is so ludicrously hypocritical considering the government funding disparity that already exists that Mr Grayling seems to want to make even worse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Translation: North should pay for its own transport needs.

It's not an utterly terrible idea that a German style devolution of regional railway services should be pursued (this would leave the only the InterCity franchises to be let nationally). But that would require devolution of funding as well - i.e. local taxation or a greater block grant.

 

[Moonshot]

Yes, there is, delayed investment in electrification, that is now being cut back.

And as I pointed out earlier, a devolved body could make the same decision....but in any event, the taxpayers purse isnt a bottomless pit.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Have you got the link ?

Here. You can watch it now. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b091vnlj

 

[Moonshot]

Translation: North should pay for its own transport needs.
Which of course is so ludicrously hypocritical considering the government funding disparity that already exists that Mr Grayling seems to want to make even worse.

Its worth noting that Pacer replacement was highlighted by Whitehall Civil Servants as offering very poor value for money .....however the then transport sec ( Patrick Mcgloughlin ) overuled that and authorised the programme anyway.

 

[EngFocus]

I have been writing quite a bit about "Crossrail North", "HS3", "Northern Powerhouse rail" recently. Here are my last thoughts on the subject, looking at planning and funding. Written before George Osborne's statement on HS3.

 

[notlob.divad]

Its worth noting that Pacer replacement was highlighted by Whitehall Civil Servants as offering very poor value for money .....however the then transport sec ( Patrick Mcgloughlin ) overuled that and authorised the programme anyway.

However, since then there has been a glut of new rolling stock ordered, with people often siting the very high leasing and maintenance costs of old stock versus the cost of buying new. So perhaps this same civil servants did not have quite the forethought they should have, alternatively they just got the sums wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, since then there has been a glut of new rolling stock ordered, with people often siting the very high leasing and maintenance costs of old stock versus the cost of buying new. So perhaps this same civil servants did not have quite the forethought they should have, alternatively they just got the sums wrong.

Much of said stock has been EMU rather than DMU, though. Perhaps EMU is much cheaper due to the larger amount of competition in the market?

 

[Moonshot]

Much of said stock has been EMU rather than DMU, though. Perhaps EMU is much cheaper due to the larger amount of competition in the market?

Are you saying that prices are being kept down due to competition between EMU suppliers? Thats interesting !!

 

[EngFocus]

Translation: North should pay for its own transport needs.
Which of course is so ludicrously hypocritical considering the government funding disparity that already exists that Mr Grayling seems to want to make even worse.

The North doesn't currently have the ability to pay for its own transport, unlike TfL which has the ability to use revenues to part fund infrastructure investment.

If Grayling wants the North to pay it must give devolved powers to a body which represents the whole of the north. Transport for the North is making good progress but we must wait until next year to see what their transport strategy would be.

 

[Moonshot]

The North doesn't currently have the ability to pay for its own transport, unlike TfL which has the ability to use revenues to part fund infrastructure investment.

If Grayling wants the North to pay it must give devolved powers to a body which represents the whole of the north. Transport for the North is making good progress but we must wait until next year to see what their transport strategy would be.

Are those devolved powers to include the funding ?

 

[EngFocus]

Are those devolved powers to include the funding ?

The devolved powers should include funding, but I don't think TfN will receive devolved funding powers, simply decision making powers. Any proposals will have to be put before government to apply for funding. I could be wrong though?

 

[SF-02]

So he's gone completely against what he did when he blocked Southeastern Metro going to TfL, at no cost to the Treasury, just a few months ago. Was against devolution then. That's was despite support across the political spectrum. And since then he's blocked numerous plans to transfer surplus stock (319s and then 377s) to SE.

His record is dire in all his roles. No long term thinking.

 

[Moonshot]

The devolved powers should include funding, but I don't think TfN will receive devolved funding powers, simply decision making powers. Any proposals will have to be put before government to apply for funding. I could be wrong though?

that would seem to make devolved powers a bit weak if they were still reliant on central government funding.....we shall wait and see. On a side note however as I am operational rail staff, there are some significant number of projects going on right now , so for anyone to say that we are starved of activity up north is very blinkered.

 

[Moonshot]

So he's gone completely against what he did when he blocked Southeastern Metro going to TfL, at no cost to the Treasury, just a few months ago. Was against devolution then. That's was despite support across the political spectrum. And since then he's blocked numerous plans to transfer surplus stock (319s and then 377s) to SE.

His record is dire in all his roles. No long term thinking.

He could always be voted out at the next election of course...

 

[Mollman]

It is worth noting that the bill that would have allowed Metro Mayors to raise their own money was never passed as the snap election happened before it was debated.

Scotland and London fund transport along with other things through their devolved government, something the North doesn't have. The Welsh franchise is being delayed due to the alleged unwillingness by the DfT to transfer the relevant powers - a warning for the North.

 

[squizzler]

He could always be voted out at the next election of course...

Quite. Noting the red "angry" emoticon on the post title I think the adage should be "don't get mad get even". With heavy hitters prepared to break ranks over investment in North it might be that the Government has miscalculated. And even us humble rail enthusiasts can get involved through petitioning, or even just whilst discussing the news with colleagues and community.

 

[Buspilot]

His record is dire in all his roles. No long term thinking.

...and no thought regarding immediate impact or logic applied.

His article is a cop out. He has interferred in the North by cancelation of electrification projects and offered so called solutions which are still in their infancy of the development stage and no orders for the additional rolling stock his schemes require, never mind where the funding or amount is to come from.

It's all smoke and mirrors.

He realises he's made a huge mistake and is trying to justify his actions. He's digging a big hole for himself.

 

[lejog]

There really is a load of wibble being spouted in this thread, partly because the OP did not provide any quotes. Now Yorkie has edited the first post can you please note what Grayling said about funding:

In the article, Mr Grayling said whilst one of his "biggest priorities" was to build transport links in the North, it was down to the region to design and manage them.

He wrote: "It is central government's responsibility to provide funding and a delivery structure that ensures efficiency, value for money and accountability.But, beyond this, I want the North to take control"

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this.

 

[adrock1976]

Will this Rail North body/Northern Powerhouse/etc be working in partnership with Merseyside, Greater Manchester, South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire, and Tyne & Wear Passenger Transport Executives?

 

[Moonshot]

There really is a load of wibble being spouted in this thread, partly because the OP did not provide any quotes. Now Yorkie has edited the first post can you please note what Grayling said about funding:



I see absolutely nothing wrong with this.

Neither do I ...except the caveat that a TFN body could propose all sorts of grandiose schemes and then complain that central government wont fund them. But that aside , it has to be the way forward longer term.

 

[lejog]

Here is Grayling's full article in the Yorkshire Post.

IF the north of England were a separate nation, it would be among the 10 biggest economies in Europe.

With a population of 15 million, over a million businesses, and exports upwards of £50bn, the North makes a massive contribution to the success and prosperity of the UK.

‘We need a united Yorkshire to end this North-South divide over rail services’

But poor transport is holding it back. Congested roads and overcrowded trains are a daily reality for thousands of commuters. Without modern, efficient and reliable transport links, the vast economic potential of the North cannot be realised. So I am pleased that leaders from across the North are gathering for a conference in Leeds this week to debate this very issue.

The message I want to send them is simply this: although one of my biggest priorities as Secretary of State is to build the transport links the North needs to thrive, they must be designed and managed by the North itself.

It is central government’s responsibility to provide funding and a delivery structure that ensures efficiency, value for money and accountability. But beyond this, I want the North to take control.

Unprecedented investment is already in place. We are spending £13bn on Northern transport in this Parliament – the largest in government history.

We are building HS2 – the first new North-South railway in this country for over a century. We’re providing better rail journeys through the new Northern and TransPennine franchises and Great North Rail Project. We’re spending almost £3bn on road improvements, and upgrading the M1 and M62 into smart motorways. And private funding is transforming major transport hubs like Leeds Bradford, Newcastle and Manchester Airports, and the port of Liverpool.

All this investment is crucial. But it’s only part of the solution. What’s just as important is the North stepping up to shape its own transport destiny.

By setting up Transport for the North (TfN) and backing the election of metro mayors, we have given the North greater autonomy and control, and a powerful voice to articulate the case for new transport projects. As soon as I became Transport Secretary, I began taking steps to put TfN on a statutory footing.

Instead of ministers and civil servants in Whitehall deciding what’s best for the North, I want TfN and other Northern leaders to come forward with fully costed proposals to improve journeys for transport users and provide value for taxpayers.

This is not about setting one region against another. We’ve seen enough of that recently in a series of articles quoting Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham, and another in The Yorkshire Post last week written by Shadow Transport Secretary Andy McDonald, which mistakenly claimed that the Government is rowing back on our commitment to the North because we favoured Crossrail 2 in the South. In particular, they cast doubts on our plans for Northern Powerhouse Rail – the proposed East-West railway linking Liverpool and Hull.

They were wrong.

We are fully committed to our Northern transport programme, including Northern Powerhouse Rail. In fact we have given TfN £60m to develop proposals for the scheme, and are working with them to strengthen the business case for the line.

It’s exactly the same as the way we’re working with Transport for London on Crossrail 2. The only difference between the two schemes is that Crossrail 2 has been nine years in the making, while we started planning Northern Powerhouse Rail in 2013.

I have been absolutely clear that sometimes we may have to adapt plans when evolving technology provides us with new options. As The Yorkshire Post has reported, new bi-mode trains, which seamlessly transfer between diesel and electric power, mean we don’t have to electrify entire rail lines to achieve the same benefits for passengers.

In some cases, we can deliver journey improvements faster, without the need for disruptive and expensive electrification works. This is what we are doing to improve journeys between Sheffield and London. There will also be bi-mode trains crossing the Pennines by 2020.

I’m hugely excited about the prospects for transport in the north of England. Tremendous opportunities are opening up to connect the major Northern cities with modern new links, and deliver the extra capacity to tackle congestion and overcrowding.

But ultimately, it is not up to central government to grasp these opportunities.

The success of Northern transport depends on the North itself – on TfN, businesses, mayors and devolved authorities, and on local communities. They understand the North’s transport problems better than anyone, and with their knowledge, we can fix them.

 

[Moonshot]

Here is Grayling's full article in the Yorkshire Post.

Nothing wrong with that ....bring it on

 

[Moonshot]

I mentioned earlier about the structure of TFN which could be similar to the Manchester Airports Group.....interesting to note that Jet2.com have just announced 400 new jobs