Why cant i get off replacement bus at Manchester?

[Bletchleyite]

I know you say most but how do school buses operate within the requirements?

They are either (a) not open to the public (being restricted to children at the specified school) and thus classed as private hires, or (b) they *are* registered local bus services.

Many are (b) because BSOG can be claimed - certainly the vast majority in MK are open to the public, just they don't operate on routes or at times when the public would actually want to use them, so the public actually using them is rare.

 

[DelW]

The question is, would you expect the train to drop you right outside your house just because you happened to live next to where it was passing? If not, why should the rail replacement bus?

The OP wasn't asking to be dropped off outside his house. He wanted to be allowed off at a station where the RRB was stopping, but where it was timetabled as pick-up only.

 

[weastebusdepot]

The OP wasn't asking to be dropped off outside his house. He wanted to be allowed off at a station where the RRB was stopping, but where it was timetabled as pick-up only.

Except I suspect it isn't scheduled to stop there and runs direct from Blackpool North to Manchester Airport. The one that picks up at Piccadilly at that time starts at Preston.

 

[WatcherZero]

Sometimes the rail replacement buses have different calling patterns to try and maintain as close as possible to rail times as roads may not neccesarilly be as quick between some points but may actually be quicker between others. E.g. a bus I got from Birmingham to the East Midlands some years ago.

Bus 1 called at stations A, B, C, E, F
bus 2 called at stations D, G, H, I, J

Bus 2 was timed to arrive at station J only a couple of minutes after bus 1 arrived at F and bus 2 reached station D before bus 1 reached station C.

So you may well have been quicker on a bus that was only calling at the last stations because it was following the Motorway then backtracking than a bus running through them all sequentially following slower more indirect roads.

 

[The Ham]

During times of rail replacement buses it is not uncommon for TOC's to tear up the timetable and run buses which allows for the fastest travel. As such it seams unreasonable to expect a bus to call somewhere to pick up/set down only.

Therefore if that does occur I would be inclined to write to the TOC and ask if it is possible for that rule to be changed. Especially in the case of pick up only you could argue "what happens if the bus is full and by letting passengers off it would allow others to get on?" or "by dropping off it will allow more people to get on the bus back from the airport." in both cases it could reduce the number of buses needed.

Of course that's not going to help this time but could ensure that it doesn't happen again.

As an example of changing routes it is not uncommon locally for the bus service to run from a train station beyond the junction where the two lines diverge to serve the other line. This is done solely because it results in a quicker and easier bus route. That probably has nothing to with passengers and is more down to needing to pay for less buses traveling a shorter distance. However it does demonstrate that rail replacement buses do not have to follow the timetabled route.

 

[Sybic26]

Re the original post regarding the early Sunday morning journey from Blackpool at 03:20 to Manchester Airport.

The public timetable issued by Northern Trains for May 21 to October 1 shows the rail replacement service operates as follows:
Blackpool 03:20
Preston 04:00 pick up only
Bolton 04:35 pick up only
Manchester Piccadilly 05:00 pick up only
Manchester Airport 05:25.

 

[Howardh]

School and works buses don't have to be registered unless members of the public can also travel on them. In Greater Manchester there's a large number of school buses registered as public bus services and the public could travel on them if they wanted to.

Yes, there are a number of "hidden" services which are timetabled school runs which do pick up *normal* passengers in Greater Manchester. AFAIK they won't show up on a map or Journey Planner, but if you search "school buses" you should get the public ones.

However I assume travelling on a bus full of schoolkids isn't the most pleasant way to travel. Unless they are a darned sight better behaved than my school buses were!!

 

[OwlMan]

Re the original post regarding the early Sunday morning journey from Blackpool at 03:20 to Manchester Airport.

The public timetable issued by Northern Trains for May 21 to October 1 shows the rail replacement service operates as follows:
Blackpool 03:20
Preston 04:00 pick up only
Bolton 04:35 pick up only
Manchester Piccadilly 05:00 pick up only
Manchester Airport 05:25.

Yes, but it does not show how many buses are running that service. For example Bus 1 may run direct from Blackpool to Manchester Airport, Bus 2 from Preston to Bolton then direct to Manchester Airport, Buses 3 & 4 from Piccadilly to Manchester Airport.
As all stops are pick up only once a bus if reasonably full it will go direct to Manchester Airport

 

[Sybic26]

Re Owlmans comment

From memory there is only one bus operating on the journey from Blackpool North at 0320
to Manchester Airport.

 

[Dai Corner]

Re Owlmans comment

From memory there is only one bus operating on the journey from Blackpool North at 0320
to Manchester Airport.

And surely it wouldn't take over two hours from Blackpool to the airport direct via the M55/M6/M56 in the middle of the night?

 

[TUC]

Is there anything specific in legislation about the status of rail replacement bus services or is everyone just speculating as to their legal status?

 

[lejog]

Is there anything specific in legislation about the status of rail replacement bus services or is everyone just speculating as to their legal status?

Yes there is specific legislation.

You don’t need to register (with the traffic commisioners[/I)]:

a replacement bus service (eg when a train service is temporarily cancelled and a bus is used instead) provided under an agreement with the Secretary of State, the Scottish Ministers or the National Assembly for Wales

https://www.gov.uk/run-local-bus-service/exemptions

 

[Mugby]

There was only one coach provided when I used it. Standing passengers after Bolton!

 

[Robertj21a]

There was only one coach provided when I used it. Standing passengers after Bolton!

Which is, of course, illegal.......

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which is, of course, illegal.......

Depends on the coach. It's rare but some are certified for standees.

 

[Robertj21a]

Depends on the coach. It's rare but some are certified for standees.

Interesting, I can't think of a single one. Any examples ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting, I can't think of a single one. Any examples ?

The old Stagecoach X5 coaches used to have overhead handles for 8 standees, and in the days of the hourly service did carry them relatively often.

 

[Bungle965]

There was only one coach provided when I used it. Standing passengers after Bolton!

Without wishing to question your intellectual ability, are you sure that it was a coach?
As on the Bolton blockade quite a few of the services are actually service buses that have been contracted out to work Rail Replacement Work from companies such as Rotala and Tyrers.
Sam

 

[Mugby]

Without wishing to question your intellectual ability, are you sure that it was a coach?
As on the Bolton blockade quite a few of the services are actually service buses that have been contracted out to work Rail Replacement Work from companies such as Rotala and Tyrers.
Sam

Yes definitely a coach, it wasn't the Bolton blockade, I travelled on the 0320 from Blackpool, about three years ago, which is the service in question.

 

[Robertj21a]

The old Stagecoach X5 coaches used to have overhead handles for 8 standees, and in the days of the hourly service did carry them relatively often.

Thanks, never knew that. Are there any current examples ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks, never knew that. Are there any current examples ?

Don't know of any. Though those actual coaches are probably still knocking about somewhere.

 

[quarella]

It is rare but I have travelled on a coach certified for standing passengers with grab handles. In the old days it would have been called Dual Purpose. I have also travelled on a Rail Replacement service that used a bus and stated "Standing Passengers Nil" using the word not figures.

 

[Mugby]

I remember mentioning it on here at the time particularly because the coach used the M61, M60 and M602 into Manchester.

Wasn't sure if standing passengers were allowed on motorways but they certainly were on that occasion.

 

[GusB]

The old Stagecoach X5 coaches used to have overhead handles for 8 standees, and in the days of the hourly service did carry them relatively often.

Were they Plaxton Interurbans by any chance? I remember them having grab-handles, as well as a luggage pen just behind the door.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Were they Plaxton Interurbans by any chance? I remember them having grab-handles, as well as a luggage pen just behind the door.

If you mean these coaches, then yes. Bedford depot still has a few of these (for driver training maybe?). You can often spot them near the back of the depot from the bridge over the former Varsity line.

 

[TUC]

Yes there is specific legislation.



https://www.gov.uk/run-local-bus-service/exemptions

That's a statement that rail replacement services do not have to be registered as local bus services. It's not the same as clarifying what status they therfore do have e.g. whether legally they are treated as private hire or ?

 

[GusB]

If you mean these coaches, then yes. Bedford depot still has a few of these (for driver training maybe?). You can often spot them near the back of the depot from the bridge over the former Varsity line.

Yes and no. The Interurban was a derivative of the Plaxton Premiere 320, and was introduced by Stagecoach as a dual-purpose vehicle at a time when they'd largely fallen out of favour. A few remained here as driver-trainers too. The vehicle pictured in the Wiki article to which you have linked is an Expressliner II, which was based on the higher-floored Premiere 350.

We are heading off-topic, though.

 

[boing_uk]

Same here with regards being let off buses - the bustitution which sometimes occurred on the Blackpool South line used to drop passengers wherever convenient for them along the route. Which was great because there was a bus stop end of my street, instead of the 5 min walk from Squires Gate

Another interesting facet sometimes of the late night services was the driver asking the passengers which station they wanted and driving direct between, instead of following circuitous routes that were not required.

Indeed similarly replacements going to Grimsby often come off at the A1136 from the A180 (never could understand that as its most indirect from BTB to GMB, but still...) and they would drop off passengers wherever they requested. Which was great because it used to save me the £6 taxi fare back to mums, just by being dropped off at the end of her road.

I think the guidelines on the .gov website are fairly unambiguous in their intent; a RRB service is not a bus service that requires registering and therefore is only really subject to the rules imposed on it by the TOC most likely.

 

[Robertj21a]

That's a statement that rail replacement services do not have to be registered as local bus services. It's not the same as clarifying what status they therfore do have e.g. whether legally they are treated as private hire or ?

If it doesn't need to be registered, but someone is paying for it to go from A to B then it's difficult to see how it could be defined as anything other than a Private Hire.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the guidelines on the .gov website are fairly unambiguous in their intent; a RRB service is not a bus service that requires registering and therefore is only really subject to the rules imposed on it by the TOC most likely.

That depends what a RRB is defined as. I was always under the impression that to be a RRB it was only allowed to serve stations or designated alternatives if the station could not be reached by a bus.