How might the 3rd Hope Valley path be used?

[DanTrain]

Does anyone know how the 3rd hourly express path down the Hope Valley will be used once the improvements are finished?

I heard that there may be a few TPE Liverpool - Doncaster service using it, but I'm not sure if this is correct, I'm sure others will know more

 

[158756]

As far as I can tell it's disappeared. TPE or Northern aren't expected to run any such service in the current franchises anyway.

Much like the rest of the Northern Hub - smoke and mirrors, a plan to fob off the North with promises of jam tomorrow which will never arrive. For good reason mind, but the improvements should never have been planned in the first place.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

When we planned "Operation Rio" -WCML diverted St Pancras to Manchester , I chaired the first few meetings when the spec was being discussed , and was quite amazed as to how straightforward it was (thanks to great assistance from the freight guys in particular) - at one point we patched the signalman at Dore +Totley into the meeting (in between trains of course) , and his advice was splendid.

I think about 3 meetings nailed the TT - the rolling stock issues were a bit more complex.

I guess the trains have moved a bit on the graph since.

 

[Senex]

When we planned "Operation Rio" -WCML diverted St Pancras to Manchester , I chaired the first few meetings when the spec was being discussed , and was quite amazed as to how straightforward it was (thanks to great assistance from the freight guys in particular) - at one point we patched the signalman at Dore +Totley into the meeting (in between trains of course) , and his advice was splendid.

I think about 3 meetings nailed the TT - the rolling stock issues were a bit more complex.

I guess the trains have moved a bit on the graph since.

Though the running of the HSTs over the Hope Valley line under Rio was generally pretty dreadful in my experience of the service, with a good run northwards from Leicester becoming pretty wretched from Dronfield onwards.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Though the running of the HSTs over the Hope Valley line under Rio was generally pretty dreadful in my experience of the service, with a good run northwards from Leicester becoming pretty wretched from Dronfield onwards.

It did the job - though loadings were a bit light on some days. (and crazy on others)

 

[Senex]

It did the job - though loadings were a bit light on some days. (and crazy on others)

I must have been on them at bad times. When I travelled First was always pretty well empty, and a walk through Standard shewed light loadings. But then they really were very slow from London to Manchester. I've often wondered what loadings might have been like if they could have been genuinely fast—net timings with only say 7 or 8 minutes recovery and only a Leicester stop. (Even so, riding in a proper train through the Hope Valley was a very agreeable experience indeed and brought back memories of when the Harwich boat train ran that way. A far cry from the ususal noisy and overcrowded dmu rubbish.)

 

[Chester1]

Have the Hope Valley passing loops been officially cancelled?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I must have been on them at bad times. When I travelled First was always pretty well empty, and a walk through Standard shewed light loadings. But then they really were very slow from London to Manchester. I've often wondered what loadings might have been like if they could have been genuinely fast—net timings with only say 7 or 8 minutes recovery and only a Leicester stop. (Even so, riding in a proper train through the Hope Valley was a very agreeable experience indeed and brought back memories of when the Harwich boat train ran that way. A far cry from the ususal noisy and overcrowded dmu rubbish.)

It was a massive compromise in not retiming the whole MML (which would have been traumatic for an 18 month service) , the issue was providing an "one seat journey" - Manchester to London. Complex blocks in the Manchester- Crewe - Stafford area. Not all of which went well , even after the RIO project.

Anyway - I worked for the SRA at the time , and the whole costs were provided by the infrastructure provider.

Curates Egg as the Victorians say - "good in parts" - note it was also a bit of a lifeline to the troubled MML franchise of the day.

 

[DanTrain]

Have the Hope Valley passing loops been officially cancelled?

Don't think so, the second platform at Dore is still going ahead, so I assume the passing loops come with that. TPE are doubling their trains to 6 cars, which will help somewhat at least!

 

[dk1]

Most HSTs I used during Rio where also very poorly patrionised which I was very surprised at.

 

[lejog]

Have the Hope Valley passing loops been officially cancelled?

No, there was a TWA public inquiry last year, but the decision is still awaited. IiRC, there was an unexpectedly high level of local opposition to the scheme.

 

[Killingworth]

Found this 5 year old thread by accident. Work is now expected to start in the Spring of 2022 and take 14 months to complete by Autumn 2023.

Whether any extra trains will run once the work is done may be open to review after COVID. Specific options may depend on Castlefield congestion limitations, and in the Stockport area. The evidence submitted to the Public Inquiry modelled a service from Liverpool to Leicester via Sheffield, but it was made clear that was only for illustrative reasons. Anything more at present is mere speculation as there's heavy over capacity within most current trains.

There's a separate thread for the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme.

 

[IanXC]

I think it's hard to imagine it going beyond Manchester Piccadilly...

 

[185143]

I think it's hard to imagine it going beyond Manchester Piccadilly...

Why not Liverpool-One Stop-Man Vic-Stockport (via Denton)-Sheffield-Onwards? And I'm only partly joking.

 

[IanXC]

Why not Liverpool-One Stop-Man Vic-Stockport (via Denton)-Sheffield-Onwards? And I'm only partly joking.

And you've identified the path from the Chat Moss to Manchester Victoria, and found the platform availability and Victoria?

 

[cle]

Not everywhere is maxed out on paths. Victoria has four through platforms (compare to P13/14!) - and services can be shuffled between Staly and Rochdale. Chat Moss isn't full either - Liverpool to Roby is the stretch with capacity issues (and Liverpool platforms).

The trickiest part of that proposal is the Stockport Viaduct but coming from Denton and going toward Sheffield is optimal at least in terms of platforms and lines at Stockport. If it wasn't incredibly slow, it might be interesting. Would give some new access to Sheffield too (especially if it also called at Salford Central).

 

[30907]

And you've identified the path from the Chat Moss to Manchester Victoria, and found the platform availability and Victoria?

I doubt they have, and nor have I, but it (or Philips Park-Ashburys-Romiley) seems a perfectly reasonable suggestion with potentially a similar journey time to via Warrington. The disadvantage is that you split the Sheffield service between Picc and Vic, which isn't ideal.

 

[Killingworth]

The earliest the new track arrangements will be available for trains to run (with blockades totally removed) is likely to be autumn 2023, possibly not reliably ready before May 2024 timetable changes.

That gives at least 2 years to absorb the lessons of COVID and its aftermath. Less frequent and longer trains ppears to be the most obvious, helping congestion across the network. I wouldn't bet on any extra services in the new post-COVID world. That would disappoint a lot!

I say that after observing the massive slump in South Pennine commuting traffic, and hearing how many will be working from home in future.