I actually think the shortest route may be to go out in to the bus station and take the single escalator down to the Shard Arcade and walk through that! Not a well advertised route especially considering the build quality of that escalator feels like it's going to fly apart at any moment.
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London Bridge reconstruction works
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I actually think the shortest route may be to go out in to the bus station and take the single escalator down to the Shard Arcade and walk through that! Not a well advertised route especially considering the build quality of that escalator feels like it's going to fly apart at any moment.
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In other news, I spent a few days in Vienna last week and I was struck by how similar the newly redeveloped Wien Hauptbahnhof (Vienna central station) and London Bridge have ended up looking. Both are multi-level stations with a large street-level concourse, lifts and escalators to each platform, and individual platform canopies instead of a train shed roof.
Vienna is bigger (more shops) and has an underground concourse and a huge car park beneath it, but I've attached a few pics (not mine - from various places) because I was really struck by what seem to be twins!
Main difference would be less use of wood finish - not sure if this is better or worse overall, but the level of finish at Vienna hbf is very high.
Vienna is bigger (more shops) and has an underground concourse and a huge car park beneath it, but I've attached a few pics (not mine - from various places) because I was really struck by what seem to be twins!
Main difference would be less use of wood finish - not sure if this is better or worse overall, but the level of finish at Vienna hbf is very high.
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Indeed they are very similar but Vienna was conceived after the Thameslink/London Bridge rebuild but was completed first.
They solved similar issues in the Vienna case creating a new 4 track corridor to allow more cross Vienna links (N-S-E-W) on a new southern corridor to replace a terminus as there was only previously a 2 track Eastern corridor to go round the city (which caused mobilisation problems when planning WW1).
The other main difference is that the stairs and escalators aren't side by side but behind each other to keep the platform width narrower.
carriageline
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August bank holiday is quickly approaching! In case anyone is interested, this is the brief outline of the changes we will be seeing:
Platform 6 opened to the public.
Slewing and commissioning of certain lines (8 up, 7 reversible, 6 down) on the kent side
The first Kent tracks to run through the BDU will be commissioned.
Crossovers & 'slots' being commissioned to once again link the central and eastern sides of the the station
The Charing Cross workstation at TBROC being extended to cover just short of New Cross into Charing Cross
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Platform 6 opened to the public.
Slewing and commissioning of certain lines (8 up, 7 reversible, 6 down) on the kent side
The first Kent tracks to run through the BDU will be commissioned.
Crossovers & 'slots' being commissioned to once again link the central and eastern sides of the the station
The Charing Cross workstation at TBROC being extended to cover just short of New Cross into Charing Cross
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Blindtraveler
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Thanks, yes I was/am interested
Blindtraveler
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Has that been nearly a year now?
I cannot even remember why it started its so long haha.
I cannot even remember why it started its so long haha.
I got the impression they were laying down track 3 through the station during the blockade as well, am I right?
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carriageline
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Possibly! I'm mainly talking about what will actually be commissioned and useable post the bank holiday
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Wondering why the big wall has been partially disassembled given that side of the station isn't going to be brought in to use until January. Is it to access the bottom of the track 5/6 bridge deck to install the wooden panels and lighting, perhaps?
IanKR
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The last time I changed from a SE train at LBG onto the Tube (a couple of weeks ago) I found the signage to be not very good. It seemed to peter out at one stage - it wasn't obvious that you had to go through some sort of shopping arcade. Will NR <-> Tube access improve after the rebuild?
Any idea where the changeover will be ? L218 on the up ? Now we will use the Kent Fasts is TBROC Cannon Street going down towards Deptford ?
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All passengers from all platforms will eventually be directed through the Western Arcade. It will be much wider and two directions when complete.
swt_passenger
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The 'sort of shopping arcade' you went through is the main interchange between the lower concourse and the tube. It will be much wider than it used to be...
I actually thought from the post, he meant he'd been directed through the Shard Arcade.
When you emerge from the Western Arcade in to Joiner Street, for some reason the Northern Line is still signposted as being a left turn and then a walk down Joiner St and then through those shops, whereas the Jubilee Line is signposted as a right turn through the proper tube entrance.
I am convinced this walk is significantly further than using the proper tube entrance to access the Northern Line gates.
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IanKR
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Thanks for replies. Sorry, I don't know the proper names for the various areas. I just know that the signage directing folk to the Tube 'broke down' en route. Not impressed.
Hopefully it will improve and settle down as they get closer to the completion date... hopefully.
Contrast this deliberate act to make interchange harder with the good hearted railway designers in the mid 20th century. Central line to BR at Stratford,Victoria line to northern line at Euston, Vic line to Pic line at Finsbury Park etc etc, all 20 second cross platform interchanges on the level & achieved at considerable engineering cost. Then look at the convoluted Jubilee line interchanges, mostly designed to allow ticket checks on travellers between the different lines. Then look at the latest incarnations. The seemingly mile long interchanges under Kings Cross. The aforementioned London Bridge main line to tube extended hikes & the very recent pushing towards the country of the Waterloo international platforms so more retail can soon be jammed in. Oh and also the wonderfully simple interchange at Paddington 'Hammersmith & City' island platform to the main Line platforms via a footbridge now another external hike.. I often wonder if railway designers, who used to care about people as evidenced by their thoughtful designs now just regard punters as a nuisance.
There is a technical write up on the August and Christmas works in Rail Engineer :
http://www.railengineer.uk/2017/08/18/thameslink-the-final-countdown
With timelines for TBROC re-controls: May 2018 - Lewisham , Easter 2019 - Charlton / Woolwich , 2020 - Hither Green, the final London Bridge panel and closure after 40 years service.
http://www.railengineer.uk/2017/08/18/thameslink-the-final-countdown
With timelines for TBROC re-controls: May 2018 - Lewisham , Easter 2019 - Charlton / Woolwich , 2020 - Hither Green, the final London Bridge panel and closure after 40 years service.
swt_passenger
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I noticed a few days ago that platform 15 has had a load of steel portakabin-like offices and similar located along the back.
Someone please tell me that this is a short term only location while permanent 'back of house' accommodation is built elsewhere?
Someone please tell me that this is a short term only location while permanent 'back of house' accommodation is built elsewhere?
Yeah, I've been wondering for a while when all the temporary booths on P15 were going to be removed. They're taking their sweet time, it's only recently they removed the steel hoardings that were behind the stairwell.
Alternatively, perhaps the models used to test station designs showed that without sufficient physical capacity to accommodate the increase in passengers caused by the Eurostar Terminal/Thameslink/growth, punters would be backing up everywhere and causing stations and barriers to be overwhelmed as occurs at Victoria every day several times.
swt_passenger
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Not only rail/tube interchange, but the entire development area of the Kings Cross railway lands, there's all that office, residential and educational space as well - all wanting (and deservedly getting) access to LU from the north.
Yes as for fast walkers it doesn't make too much difference but gor the elderly and disabled they are slower hence with a similar start point time they'll arrive at the end point at significantly different times
Alternatively, perhaps the designers don't deliberately try to make it difficult for passengers. Perhaps they design things that are intended to work with the numbers of people expected to use them.
Take London Bridge as it is the topic. To get the necessary number of platforms, and a good width on each of them meant pushing the through platforms a little to the east. Going west was not practical because of the lines converging at Borough Market Junction. Unless you wanted to demolish Southwark Cathedral and build a new bridge across the Thames that is.
Given that the platforms had to move east, the concourse has to go with it. Passenger numbers required 2 banks of escalators on the through platforms, and to spread people out on the platforms the escalators need to be separated at the top, ie being closer together at the bottom. This combined with platform width requirements fixes the western escalator head, and thus the westernmost point of the concourse. If they could have gone further west they would.
Some long interchanges at busy stations are a fact of life. It is physically impossible to get all platforms of a multi line interchange close to each other. The various tunnels have to fit around each other, the necessary alignments of the running tunnel approaches, passageways, building foundations, other utility tunnels (of which there are a great many), and, not least, geology. Kings Cross / St Pancras being the best example, with five separate lines serving 8 separate station tunnels underground, a very deep basement next door at the British Library, another one up at the Francis Crick Institute, 2 main line stations 'upstairs' with 24 platforms between them, various utility tunnels and a river all in close proximity.
Finally, Waterloo hasn't been pushed out for more retail, it has been done to create more concourse space at the UKs busiest station, and also to maximise capacity on the track layout at the throat.
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coppercapped
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The Paddington connection was wonderfully simple - and totally inadequate.
Arriving and departing passengers used the same set of stairs - it was a rugby scrum and very unpleasant. The new entrance allows people working in the new office buildings nearby easy access to the Underground which the old arrangement didn't and also permits separate arrival and departure routes to and from the platforms.
But rants are fun, aren't they?
Paddington H & C island platform to Paddington suburban platforms walk took one minute except for two hours a day when it took two minutes. Now the new multi million pound route takes 5 minutes.
It could have been solved by putting in an extra footbridge at the country end for a hundredth the cost or making the lift, which has been installed, a proper people carrier able to take 50 people at a time.
London Bridge's new interchange route march is designed to take passengers through a temple of retail. Minimising walking time should have been a priority. Instead maximum exposure to retail is the clear objective &, I am told, a Network Rail selling point to prospective retailers.
Do you realise their slick salesmen talk of footfall measured in consumer minutes exposed to the retail experience?
It could have been solved by putting in an extra footbridge at the country end for a hundredth the cost or making the lift, which has been installed, a proper people carrier able to take 50 people at a time.
London Bridge's new interchange route march is designed to take passengers through a temple of retail. Minimising walking time should have been a priority. Instead maximum exposure to retail is the clear objective &, I am told, a Network Rail selling point to prospective retailers.
Do you realise their slick salesmen talk of footfall measured in consumer minutes exposed to the retail experience?
I'm not sure how they could have made the walk any shorter. It's a direct, straight path from the new concourse to the tube station entrance.
The tube station ticket hall has always been slightly west of the main station, and the platforms underground are even further to the west (so no amount of new escalators would solve this problem). Blame the Victorians for that one.
Maybe it's deceptive because it's long and boring at the moment, but from any given point on the terminal platforms the distance is the same, just with steps/escalators at different points. From the through platforms, yes it's longer if you're in the front half of the train, as you have to zig-zag down an east-facing escalator first, but in the rear half it would be the same as before. Plus, stopping passengers from crushloading the front of trains is one of the design goals of the new station.
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