Incompetent Northern Rail Staff at Piccadilly

[Bletchleyite]

They are also available where the Evening Return wasn't - outside the TfGM area.

It was in places just outside. I'm almost certain for example that there was one from Burscough Bridge, or if it wasn't there it was Parbold (just into Lancashire).

 

[northwichcat]

It was in places just outside. I'm almost certain for example that there was one from Burscough Bridge, or if it wasn't there it was Parbold (just into Lancashire).

It included Plumley and New Mills as well. It was confusing as there was also an Evening Rail Ranger which didn't include stations outside of Greater Manchester and the stations outside of GM included in the Evening Return zone weren't the same as those included in the Wayfarer zone.

The Evening Return was also less useful for journeys to Manchester the further you got out, as it was only valid for departures after 18:30 so from Levenshulme you could use it if you needed to be somewhere in the city centre for a 7 or 7.30 start but from Plumley you wouldn't have managed a pre-8pm start.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I was told by a Virgin Train Manager recently, that since I had started my journey west of Shrewsbury (and in Wales) that Off Peak did not apply, and I regularly catch trains back from Euston in "peak time" and have never been stopped or my ticket queried.

And they are always ATW tickets! (often issued by you!!)

Restriction code VJ - basically no departure from Euston M-F pre 0905 is the restriction so its valid any train down to London and the evening peak departures.

Ive heard of problems in past with barrier staff at Euston not understanding the restriction code and also of occasional travelers getting freaked out when they announce Off Peak tickets aren't valid.

Theirs a load of destinations from Newtown where the Off Peak Return Restriction Code 8A is the only overnight ticket and has no time of day restrictions. the 8A does have BOJ restrictions and is only valid on the outward date so is not as flexible as an Anytime Return. But were getting technical here!

The reality is there is no such thing as "Off Peak" on a network basis - it is a misleading description as is "Advance" given many folk buy non "Advance" tickets in advance.

 

[yorkie]

If peak time was a blanket rule, it would result in everyone whose journey starts before that time, but calls at stations after that time, having to book through Trainsplit.com in order to avoid being overcharged People who book through fares would be ripped off.

...Ive heard of problems in past with barrier staff at Euston not understanding the restriction code ...

Some of them still make up rules and wrongly charge people. There have been very recent cases which I am aware of (but not posted here).

 

[Gareth Marston]

The whole peak/off-peak situation is a complete mess, but there's no real way to fix it without imposing a blanket 'peak time' (which, as we see time and time again on XC, can be easily circumvented through split-ticketing).

The definition of "Off Peak" has been abused by TOC's/RDG as a way of increasing fares rather than regulating busy services as was originally intended. Perhaps we need to regulate it on a National basis?

Perhaps having it as arriving into a Major City ( London & the 11 metropolitan areas in the UK over One million in population plus Edinburgh) between 0730 & 0915 and departing from a major city between 1615 & 1829. Maybe 0730 to 0930 and 1600 to 1900 for London.

I would also have a long distance traveler rule that says people 90 minutes away or more from the outside London major cities and 135 minutes or more for London are exempt from peak fares as they have no choice about times of travel.

 

[Merseysider]

It was in places just outside. I'm almost certain for example that there was one from Burscough Bridge, or if it wasn't there it was Parbold (just into Lancashire).

Yes, the Evening Return was available to BCB; I bought one several years ago.

 

[Hadders]

The definition of "Off Peak" has been abused by TOC's/RDG as a way of increasing fares rather than regulating busy services as was originally intended. Perhaps we need to regulate it on a National basis?

Perhaps having it as arriving into a Major City ( London & the 11 metropolitan areas in the UK over One million in population plus Edinburgh) between 0730 & 0915 and departing from a major city between 1615 & 1829. Maybe 0730 to 0930 and 1600 to 1900 for London.

I would also have a long distance traveler rule that says people 90 minutes away or more from the outside London major cities and 135 minutes or more for London are exempt from peak fares as they have no choice about times of travel.

Interesting. What sort of restrictions would you have for a journey from, say, Ebbsfleet-Manchester? If travel is via London would the London restrictions apply?

 

[8J]

Nothing new.

Allegedly, they've been "employed" on the cheap for years now, with many (agency) jobs subcontracted to the cheapest bidder.

Before Carillion, we had G4S.

Wrong... Northern have had G4S originally, then STM security and now Carlisle Support services on their revenue protection contracts...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting. What sort of restrictions would you have for a journey from, say, Ebbsfleet-Manchester? If travel is via London would the London restrictions apply?

Logically they would apply whenever you pass such a location.

 

[Merseysider]

Wrong... Northern have had G4S originally, then STM security and now Carlisle Support services on their revenue protection contracts...

It's not wrong; that G4S previously worked a contract for Northern is a factual statement. It's also a factual statement that Carillion now do customer service for Northern. Both were and are inept at what they do.

Such attempts at pedantry won't win you many friends I'm afraid.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Interesting. What sort of restrictions would you have for a journey from, say, Ebbsfleet-Manchester? If travel is via London would the London restrictions apply?

ebbsleet is some 3 hours plus from Manchester folk really don't have any real choice about avoiding peak times or travelling via central London. You would have to have some routing point restriction to stop abuse from those further in. Ie departure time from Euston would have to comply with restriction into Manchester from Euston. No departure from Euston between 0525 & 0725 or between 1600 and 1829.

 

[Hadders]

ebbsleet is some 3 hours plus from Manchester folk really don't have any real choice about avoiding peak times or travelling via central London. You would have to have some routing point restriction to stop abuse from those further in. Ie departure time from Euston would have to comply with restriction into Manchester from Euston. No departure from Euston between 0525 & 0725 or between 1600 and 1829.

So not simple then....

 

[FenMan]

A prime example of a screwed up restriction is to attempt to travel off peak between some stations west of London, such as Reading, and Norwich. In theory, the Network rule should apply.

However, on the outward leg, travel is prohibited on any train arriving in London before 10am, despite GA selling off peak London - Norwich tickets on the 9:30am departure from Liverpool Street. This means the earliest off peak arrival in Norwich from these stations is at 12:50.

It's just as screwed up coming back. Due to imposing a blanket evening restriction out of London Paddington the "heavily used" 14:00 departure from Norwich is classified as a peak train! Goodness knows how on-board staff choose to interpret this bizarre restriction - has anyone spotted a GA guard "upgrading" a passenger on this service to an Anytime fare?

 

[Hadders]

A prime example of a screwed up restriction is to attempt to travel off peak between some stations west of London, such as Reading, and Norwich. In theory, the Network rule should apply.

However, on the outward leg, travel is prohibited on any train arriving in London before 10am, despite GA selling off peak London - Norwich tickets on the 9:30am departure from Liverpool Street. This means the earliest off peak arrival in Norwich from these stations is at 12:50.

It's just as screwed up coming back. Due to imposing a blanket evening restriction out of London Paddington the "heavily used" 14:00 departure from Norwich is classified as a peak train! Goodness knows how on-board staff choose to interpret this bizarre restriction - has anyone spotted a GA guard "upgrading" a passenger on this service to an Anytime fare?

The Network Area Rule does apply whatever online journey planners and rogue staff at Paddington and their announcements might state.

NETWORK AREA:
The 'Network area' is defined as the area in which the Network railcard is valid. For details see Network Railcard map.

Off-Peak tickets for journeys starting within the Network Area to destinations outside the Network Area with travel via London are valid by any train to London, to connect with trains from London.

Off-Peak tickets for journeys starting outside the Network Area for travel via London use restrictions from the origin station to London and return. Unless shown otherwise, they are unrestricted between London and the destination station, and return.

 

[TUC]

How do you know staff are undertrained ? I myself am a guard, and I have on occasions made an error in selling a ticket. It happens.....staff are not robots.

But Peak/Off-Peak rules is so basic an issue that you would reasonably expect them to be readily understood.

 

[gray1404]

The Network Area Rule does apply whatever online journey planners and rogue staff at Paddington and their announcements might state.

So within the network area quote it says: "Unless shown otherwise, they are unrestricted between London and the destination station [within the network area], and return."

.....and this is where the problem comes in. When you look up the ticket restriction code it does list restrictions for the leg of the journey within the network area (normally by limiting time of arrival into a London Terminal) so it gets complicated. The rule says any train unless stated otherwise and it is indeed stated otherwise in both this and other examples.

 

[FenMan]

The Network Area Rule does apply whatever online journey planners and rogue staff at Paddington and their announcements might state.

Oh I agree about the Network rule, however, in this case, the off peak restrictions for these itineraries overrides it:-
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/7B

 

[Gareth Marston]

So not simple then....

The issue boils down to what you do with those that have to travel through a Major City Center en route to another place.

In all reality people doing Ebbslfleet to Manchester crossing London at peak times but arriving Manchester off peak are a drop in the ocean compared to the number just heading into central London and likewise at the other end those doing say Todmorden via Manchester to Birmingham compared to commuters into Manchester.

What does excessively penalizing these handful of people really achieve? its not as though it stops the trains being overcrowded is it?

Perhaps the answer lies in regulating Anytime fares. The prime example i thought of was Liverpool to Manchester where someone could in theory pass through both Leeds and Manchester at peak times. The Anytime Return is £110.90 compared to the £88.00 Off Peak. Ebbsfleet to Manchester is £91.20 Off Peak but a whopping £382.00 Anytime. Ones a 26% premium the other 318%......................

 

[Gareth Marston]

The issue boils down to what you do with those that have to travel through a Major City Center en route to another place.

In all reality people doing Ebbslfleet to Manchester crossing London at peak times but arriving Manchester off peak are a drop in the ocean compared to the number just heading into central London and likewise at the other end those doing say Todmorden via Manchester to Birmingham compared to commuters into Manchester.

What does excessively penalizing these handful of people really achieve? its not as though it stops the trains being overcrowded is it?

Perhaps the answer lies in regulating Anytime fares. The prime example i thought of was Liverpool to Manchester where someone could in theory pass through both Leeds and Manchester at peak times. The Anytime Return is £110.90 compared to the £88.00 Off Peak. Ebbsfleet to Manchester is £91.20 Off Peak but a whopping £382.00 Anytime. Ones a 26% premium the other 318%......................

Liverpool to Newcastle of course surprised no one picked it up

 

[Llanigraham]

The one that does annoy me is coming via South Wales. Occasionally, due to the time the meeting is due to end in London I get the train from Ludlow to Paddington via Newport. Peak out of Paddington specifies that my ticket would only be applicable if my ticket was for stations Swansea and beyond, but because I change at Newport................I have to wait.
However I have since found that I can catch the Oxford, Worcester, Hereford train with no problem as my ticket goes beyond Malvern. The daft part about it is that I end up on the same train up the Marches if I'd gone to Newport.

 

[Hadders]

Oh I agree about the Network rule, however, in this case, the off peak restrictions for these itineraries overrides it:-
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/7B

This is a very poorly written restriction. It's the same restriction both ways - usually a restriction such as this will be different depending on the direction eg 9I and 2C, 1T and 1D.

As written it makes the Off Peak ticket practically useless - I don't believe this is the intention. Perhaps someone from greater Anglia will read this and arrange for it to be fixed....

 

[Gareth Marston]

The one that does annoy me is coming via South Wales. Occasionally, due to the time the meeting is due to end in London I get the train from Ludlow to Paddington via Newport. Peak out of Paddington specifies that my ticket would only be applicable if my ticket was for stations Swansea and beyond, but because I change at Newport................I have to wait.
However I have since found that I can catch the Oxford, Worcester, Hereford train with no problem as my ticket goes beyond Malvern. The daft part about it is that I end up on the same train up the Marches if I'd gone to Newport.

Via Stroud is a Permitted Route as well from Ludlow/Leominster but subject to peak rules.